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In this episode, I sit with Persian poet and Sufi scholar Sholeh Wolpé to unravel Rumi’s spiritual master Attar’s hidden teachings. We explore how Iran’s crisis mirrors global soul-loss, why feminine leadership heals tyranny, and Attar’s life-changing metaphor: ‘Meeting God is seeing yourself in the mirror.’ Sholeh shares urgent wisdom for staying centered amid chaos, practical ego-clearing steps from 12th-century mysticism, and how her upcoming book ‘The Invisible Sun’ brings light to modern darkness. If you’re feeling powerless or seeking deeper connection to your soul’s purpose, this conversation is your anchor. Pre-order Sholeh’s book & connect below.

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW

00:00 Julie’s Personal Intro: Current Energies
00:02 Podcast Introduction & Updates
04:48 Welcoming Guest Sholeh Wolpé
05:17 Iran Crisis: Human Impact & Spiritual Perspective
07:03 Dehumanization & Global Unrest
08:33 Finding Personal Power Amid Chaos
10:12 Women’s Rights: Iran vs. US Parallels
15:46 Margaret Atwood’s Warning for America
20:02 Feminine Leadership & Compassion
21:48 Introducing Sufi Mystic Attar
24:27 Attar’s Teachings: Soul Journey & Ego
29:15 The Ocean Metaphor: Purification & Divine Union
31:30 Ego as the “Cyclone of Calamities”
36:48 Practical Wisdom: Staying True to Your Path
41:45 Stories from “The Invisible Sun” (Aug 2024 Release)
48:27 How to Connect with Sholeh Wolpé
52:30 Closing: Light in Darkness

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Julie: Hello, beautiful souls.

[00:00:02] Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening Podcast. I’m your host and author, Julie Janis. And if it sounds like I’m in the car [00:00:09] driving, it is because I am, um, actually with my kiddo, we’re on our way to Pilates. It’s summer, it’s raining, [00:00:18] but. Beautiful outside, and I just needed to bring you this intro.

[00:00:22] Couple of different reasons why, um, I told you that I would [00:00:27] do a podcast episode on all that I’ve been getting about where we’re headed in the world. Um, and I definitely am going to bring that [00:00:36] episode to you, uh, with just all the craziness of life. I really wanted to spend some time. Really channeling and processing.

[00:00:44] Um, [00:00:45] sometimes you need to hear something from spirit, sit on it for a couple of days or a week or two and just let it marinate because as you [00:00:54] do, they bring in more and more. So, um, this isn’t something that I take lightly. I just really wanna bring you the best messages possible. [00:01:03] And so that is. Where the delay is today, you’re going to hear the most beautiful episode.

[00:01:09] Um, this is one of my favorite [00:01:12] episodes and I’m gonna tell you why you’re gonna hear this woman. Her name is Shoe Lee, and um, she [00:01:21] talks about Rumi’s Master. We’re gonna talk about this, you’re gonna hear all about it, but there’s a moment. We go so deep [00:01:30] about the 20 minute mark, 30 minute mark until the end of the episode.

[00:01:34] But there’s something that just keeps replaying in my mind and that [00:01:39] is, um, her talking about how Atar Rumi’s master spoke about. Kind of in [00:01:48] a meditation state, visualization state going and meeting God. And that when he went and met God, he said [00:01:57] there was just a mirror that God was just a mirror, and what he saw was himself and.

[00:02:05] I [00:02:06] don’t know if it’s the times that we’re in, I don’t know if it’s that all that I am feeling and processing as we move through these energies in the [00:02:15] world. Um, yes, I did go through the hysterectomy. Yes, I am so, uh, have kind of been really emotional, um, [00:02:24] this year, but the energies are just so all over the place.

[00:02:31] In the world, and [00:02:33] I know that a lot of you have been feeling that too, and I don’t know about you, but it makes me really look at [00:02:42] myself, my life, and that when we do meet God. We do. When we go to the other side, the very first thing that [00:02:51] happens is we go through our karmic life review. And what is that?

[00:02:55] Karmic life review. Isn’t that us meeting God and seeing the [00:03:00] mirror, right? The mirror of our lives. How did we live our life here? Who were we here? Um, and so I [00:03:09] really hope that as you dive into this episode, you come in with just an open, empathic heart of [00:03:18] love, of just humanity and, um. And I hope that you see it from that perspective.

[00:03:25] Uh, friends, if you would love to [00:03:27] work with me, I would love to work with you. We’re doing a bunch of sessions and readings in July, just myself, um, and August [00:03:36] working with you, uh, and putting those. Recordings on the podcast. So if you’d like to book a session with me, go [00:03:45] over to the angel medium.com. The angels just said to say, Hey, if you don’t want it on the podcast, don’t worry.

[00:03:52] Um, it doesn’t have to be on the [00:03:54] podcast. It will be, uh. Private sessions I have available as well. You can support me that way. You can [00:04:03] also, um, come to the couples retreat. We’ve got a new Angel Reiki school that’s gonna be in person. You can come to the Angel Reiki school online. [00:04:12] And um, also we’ve got a bunch of new special sacred women’s circles.

[00:04:18] I’m so excited about this. You can go over [00:04:21] to the website, the angel medium.com. The Angel medium.com and you can see all about the sacred women’s [00:04:30] circles. Join that. I did make it so that if you join the sacred women’s circles, you automatically get access to the membership as well. Alright, friends, that was [00:04:39] long enough.

[00:04:39] I hope that you have, um, just so much love of this episode like I do. Love you friends. Here is the interview without [00:04:48] any interruptions, ads, or anything. Love you. Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening Podcast. I’m your host [00:04:57] and author Julie Janis. And friends. We have a beloved poet here with us today.

[00:05:02] She’s from Iran Share. Her name is Sole [00:05:06] Wpe, and I’m excited for you to be here. Thank you so much for spending your time and opening your heart to us today. [00:05:15] I am very happy to be here.

[00:05:17] Thank you for inviting

[00:05:18] Sholeh Wolpé: me.

[00:05:18] Julie: So I think you said it best. Iran is on everyone’s minds right now [00:05:24] as this craziness within the world ensues and it’s heavy on my heart because the way that I [00:05:33] see it.

[00:05:34] Is I had questions before any of this kind of even occurred. I think it’s very fascinating to me [00:05:42] that the women in Iran were so free before, and then you went through a revolution and those freedoms were taken away, [00:05:51] and I wanted to ask you about that. But now with so many citizens being bombed and [00:06:00] gas being targeted, where people are just trying to flee cities and get out of cities, and as I understand it, there’s some very big [00:06:09] cities where there’s over 10 million people in a city, which is very large.

[00:06:13] ’cause I’m right out. Side of Chicago and there’s about five to 6 million [00:06:18] people in the city here. And I just cannot imagine. And my heart just aches for all of just [00:06:27] these human souls and women and children who are trying to leave and just can’t because there’s gridlock [00:06:36] out there right now. What is on your heart and your mind to just share with the audience today about your [00:06:45] thoughts having grown up in Iran and living all over the united, the US, and [00:06:54] Europe as well?

[00:06:56] Sholeh Wolpé: Yeah. In fact, I’m talking to you right now from Barcelona. This is where I live part-time. [00:07:03] It’s about amazing. It’s about 11 o’clock at night here as we speak. Wow. Um, it’s been tragic. [00:07:12] But I want to make it clear that I’m very much into Sufi mysticism, and later we will talk about ATAR and his [00:07:21] work, and that’s why I’m on your show right now.

[00:07:24] But one thing that I have learned from atar, who is Ruiz’s [00:07:30] Master and the spiritual guidance that I have received from him is that we, what is happening is as a result of [00:07:39] dehumanization. Of other human beings when you draw. So draw, do you mean by that draw? Yeah. What I mean by that is that we [00:07:48] have been living in a world that more and more it has become about nationalities, about egos, about [00:07:57] borders, about flags, and truly these things are meaningless in the realm of the soul.[00:08:06]

[00:08:06] And we are not dealing with one another as souls. Yeah. We have given ourselves to a [00:08:15] group of very egotistical men. Mostly Yes. Who are just setting fire to the world. Yeah, we see it all [00:08:24] over with Ukraine and Russia, with Palestine and Israel, and now Israel and Iran, and what is happening [00:08:33] in the United States now and a United States Senator being tackled for a, asking a question thrown on the [00:08:42] ground and arrested Senators being assassinated this weekend, being assassinated.

[00:08:47] What is happening? I [00:08:51] want to, yes. I was born in Iran and I love that culture. I love those people and I do not like the government. That [00:09:00] does not give anyone the right to kill innocent people for political reasons, but it’s happening all over the world. [00:09:09] So my heart aches for my fellow Iranians, but my heart aches for everyone around the world that’s being [00:09:18] oppressed.

[00:09:19] Right, yes. By these

[00:09:20] monstrous regimes and huge egos. So it’s [00:09:27] devastating and honestly, I personally don’t know what to do. I, it’s very easy to sit and say, I am [00:09:36] powerless. But I think each of us can look at our own abilities and our own talents and see what can I, as an individual do [00:09:45] for me, for example.

[00:09:47] I’ve been translating spiritual text to create some sort of a light [00:09:54] in this darkness so that we can walk through it. That is my ability. I can do that. If somebody else may say, oh, I, I [00:10:03] can’t do that, but I will read this text and I will also go out there and I will march, or I will. Speak against atrocities [00:10:12] and all of us are

[00:10:12] Julie: being called.

[00:10:13] Yeah, all I see it too. And I feel it in people’s hearts right now that some people feel very [00:10:21] activated to go and to do something physically within the world to make change. And some people feel called to kinda retreat into [00:10:30] themselves and to channel with spirit that way forward and love that they can share with other people.

[00:10:36] There’s so many different ways that. [00:10:39] People are feeling called. And what the angels have been saying to me recently is tell people that they are not powerless. This is where we come to [00:10:48] life and our true power is shown and that every single person has the ability to ask God, universe, source the [00:10:57] angels, what can I do?

[00:10:59] And have them list. Out one to five things. Great. Go focus on that and put your [00:11:06] attention on that. I love what you just said because it’s so true right now.

[00:11:12] Sholeh Wolpé: Yes. And it’s what I [00:11:15] want people to understand and absorb is that we are not powerless. Yeah. We really are not. None of us [00:11:24] are. ATAR talks about unity and diversity and that is so important.

[00:11:30] They keep telling us that unity [00:11:33] is uniformity. We all have to be the same. We all have to look like one another. We all have to have the same values, the same religion, the same, this [00:11:42] and that. That is ridiculous, which must not listen. A beautiful garden has many flowers, has different [00:11:51] herbs. We can’t.

[00:11:52] Sameness is boring sameness. Then unity has no meaning. If there is no diversity. [00:12:00] And we need to absorb these ideas and go into society and treat our family, our neighbors, [00:12:09] begin within our smaller communities, do what we can and treat other people like souls. [00:12:18] Yeah. Our soul doesn’t have gender. Right? So let’s not talk about man, woman.

[00:12:23] Yeah. Soul doesn’t have gender. We cannot judge one another [00:12:27] because this person is a man or a woman or wants to be a man or wants to, who cares, right?

[00:12:32] Julie: Yeah. Just go live your life. What are here to do? What? [00:12:36] Why is your soul here? Go focus in on that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:40] Sholeh Wolpé: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the things that I love [00:12:45] about Attor, he talks about I should we introduce who ATAR is?

[00:12:50] Yes.

[00:12:51] Julie: Who I’m talking about. I do wanna dive into [00:12:54] that. I’ve got one more question though that I wanna kind of get into before. I, I don’t know the history of this, and I don’t know if you could just talk to [00:13:03] this for a second too. And I’ve seen in the past pictures of women in Iran before the [00:13:12] revolution where they didn’t have to maybe wear head coverings, and they were allowed to be lawyers and big figures within society.

[00:13:20] [00:13:21] And I was told, and I’m not sure if this history is correct, but that through the revolution there were rights that were taken away from women [00:13:30] and with so much happening within the US right now, where now in West Virginia, if a woman is to have a miscarriage, she can [00:13:39] go to jail for a period of time just for her body.

[00:13:42] Naturally miscarrying the baby senators are being arrested. Did. There’s so [00:13:48] much happening that is not abiding by the Constitution of the United States. In what way do you [00:13:57] see. America going in a very different direction. And what do women in [00:14:06] America really need to know and understand? Well, there’s even so much as they passed a bill where if your.

[00:14:14] Maiden [00:14:15] name, the name that you were born with does not match your ID because you got married and you took your husband’s name. You cannot vote [00:14:24] without a passport. And there’s 55% of women in the United States do not have. Passports and they’re not even hearing this [00:14:33] news because the news for one population of people is not sharing with this population what’s actually [00:14:42] occurring.

[00:14:42] And so people are very blind and they’re not knowing, they’re not aware of everything. And I feel. [00:14:51] Very nervous. I feel very scared for my daughter’s generation. I’ve even told her that I don’t want her to go to college in [00:15:00] certain areas. What do you think about where America is at versus where Iran was at back in the [00:15:09] day?

[00:15:11] It’s something

[00:15:11] Sholeh Wolpé: that, actually, your question is something I’ve been really deeply thinking about today. [00:15:18] Generally, but especially today, because I don’t know if you’ve read Margaret Atwood’s Hand Needs Tale.

[00:15:26] Julie: Was it they made that [00:15:27] marvelous, it wasn’t a fiction or was it a prophecy? We don’t know. Okay.

[00:15:30] Sholeh Wolpé: Yeah.

[00:15:30] Yeah. Let me tell you, it was both and it was more, actually, it [00:15:36] wasn’t really fiction, and I’ll tell you why. Mm-hmm. But from what I’ve heard, she took a lot of her inspiration about what happened in Iran. Yes. [00:15:45] What happened in Iran was that, and this is something I want to warn American, especially American [00:15:54] women about, is that things like this don’t happen.

[00:15:57] Suddenly, they happen very slowly. It’s a trickle. It’s [00:16:03] drop by drop that gradually gathers and becomes something deeper that you drown in. What happened in Iran was that [00:16:12] people wanted the king, the Shah gone because of certain inequalities. Some things were happening and there [00:16:21] wasn’t freedom of press politics under the Shah.

[00:16:24] So people, men, women, people of different religions [00:16:30] of backgrounds, they went to the streets and they protested and they wanted the shahan. They brought in a [00:16:39] man named Aya to La Khomeini as an interim leader. Does that sound familiar? As an interim leader so [00:16:48] that a change could take place, he came to power.

[00:16:53] United States goaded, [00:16:57] Saddam Hussein to attack Iran. A war started, so all of a sudden when you start a [00:17:06] war, people nationalism begins to move and people had to go to war, and a Khomeini took [00:17:15] advantage of that, got rid of all his opposition. Leaders and people, hundreds of [00:17:24] thousands were executed and thrown into mass graves.

[00:17:28] People of minority religions, like Bahais, they were arrested. [00:17:33] Like he hanged young women because they wouldn’t give up their faith. They would not say, I’m not a Baha, or I’m not a Jew, [00:17:42] or whatever. Mm-hmm. And as a result, that through cruelty and through. United States [00:17:51] and Saddam Hussein attacking through Saddam Hussein attacking Iran, Islamic Republic of Iran, [00:18:00] basically became the forever governments.

[00:18:03] Mm-hmm. Saddam, the Khomeini didn’t leave, and it became the Islamic Republic of [00:18:09] Iran. All those women who had marched in the streets, judges, lawyers, they were forced to quit. [00:18:18] They were put into hijabs and they were basically bullied out of the daily [00:18:27] and intellectual existence of Iran. Now. Over the many years, there were many [00:18:36] revolutions that, or demonstrations against the government and women were gradually gaining back.

[00:18:43] Mm-hmm. Their freedom. And [00:18:45] probably in the next 10 years, Iran’s government would have been toppled. But this is not the way [00:18:54] to do it. This is to attack a country and kill innocent children. Yeah. And women now in this [00:19:03] country, what’s happening? I. I can. It gives me the chills because I see the same thing happening to women.

[00:19:09] Little by little they are food. Drop by drop. [00:19:12] Yeah, drop by drop. Now you can’t do this now. You can’t do this now. Now this right is taken away. People are [00:19:21] getting arrested. It by mask the men. That’s like from Handmaid’s Tale. You see the mass men arresting [00:19:30] people, the fear that people feel the, I don’t know.

[00:19:34] I get so emotional talking about this. I don’t know. I just think [00:19:39] I, it’s a warning. People have to wake up and not allow this to continue. You let it continue too much longer, then there is no [00:19:48] stopping it. Right. The system will become hardened the way it did in Iran. Yeah. And this bunch of people, these bunch of [00:19:57] clowns would not go away.

[00:19:59] Yeah. That’s the end of it for us.

[00:20:02] Julie: And that is where we’re really getting close to. It’s a very [00:20:06] fine line. And I feel for other women and men, because I’ve talked to so many people where they’re like, Julie, my nervous system just can’t [00:20:15] handle it like as an empathic person. Um, and I’ve felt this too over the last six months.

[00:20:20] Like my entire nervous system just shut down. [00:20:24] You feel like zero energy. But it does feel like there’s a spark that is here right now, and I hope that we can [00:20:33] take advantage of that spark and fight in just talking with the young men in our lives. The men in our. [00:20:42] Young men, old men, doing whatever we can and whatever spirit calls us to, because women should be in [00:20:51] politics, they should be leading this world.

[00:20:53] I truly believe that this world would be a completely different place if women were in power.

[00:20:59] Sholeh Wolpé: [00:21:00] I completely agree and. I would like to also say not just women, but also men with feminine sensibilities.

[00:21:08] Julie: [00:21:09] Yeah.

[00:21:09] Sholeh Wolpé: Because a lot of times, not a lot of times sometimes we have women with masculine sensibility. Yeah.

[00:21:16] They should not be leading. [00:21:18] I think any human being, any soul with feminine sensibilities mm-hmm. Should be leading the world now. What are feminine [00:21:27] sensibilities? There are compassion. Yeah. It’s empathy. Yeah. It’s caring. If you are a leader of the country, you should have [00:21:36] compassion for your people. Yeah.

[00:21:38] You want to uh, you want their betterment and not just the enrichment of your pockets and [00:21:45] your fellow cronies.

[00:21:46] Julie: Yeah.

[00:21:47] Sholeh Wolpé: You want equality. Yeah. Among all people. It doesn’t matter what color, [00:21:54] what race, man, woman, child. You want equality of rights. Yeah. Obviously human beings can never be [00:22:03] equal. We’re not created equal, but we must have equality of rights.

[00:22:07] Everyone should have be able to. [00:22:12] Have a feel, a sense of liberty Should not be wanting of a home or healthcare system. Yeah. Should [00:22:21] be allowed to worship the divine in whatever manner or form they want, as long as they are not hurting [00:22:30] others. These are basic human. Soul principles What? And it’s why has

[00:22:36] Julie: happened to us.

[00:22:37] Oh, for sure. And [00:22:39] it’s just the reason that the soul is here to experience, to be in joy, to get to know other souls, [00:22:48] to work and to create and to explore. The soul is here and I really feel like it’s a huge soul [00:22:57] restriction is what they’re trying to do, that they don’t really want as much of this.

[00:23:02] Spiritual energy out within the world. They don’t [00:23:06] want that soul to be free. Whatever that energy is at play really wants to restrict the soul. I found [00:23:15] a lot of peace in hearing a reel that a Texas. Pastor did yesterday where he said, well, if you go back and you look at the [00:23:24] Bible, there’s Herod the King that rules with domination and with power.

[00:23:29] And then there’s Jesus who is born in a [00:23:33] different country to this young mom and is an immigrant himself. And he preaches [00:23:42] love and who is remembered all of these thousands of years later. It’s that love. And I know that you do, you [00:23:51] channel a tar. I think

[00:23:54] Sholeh Wolpé: we all channel great souls. Yeah. If we [00:24:00] open ourselves enough.

[00:24:01] I have been working with this Sufi mystic from 12th century. Yeah. Iran, who wrote [00:24:09] this magnificent work about the journey of the soul towards the beloved. And I’ve been working a lot [00:24:18] of, of many years on his work. Yeah. And I think once you cut into the soul, into the bone and marrow of a [00:24:27] poetic work like that, you have to be channeling, uh, that person.

[00:24:32] Julie: Yes. Amazing. I think,

[00:24:33] Sholeh Wolpé: honestly, I think we’re all capable of. [00:24:36] Channeling Beau Beauty. Yes. From some unseen world. Mm-hmm. [00:24:45] And today, science is not against what I’m saying. Mm. Science talks [00:24:54] about. When you go into the subatomic world, the world is crazy. Nothing really makes sense. Yeah. And it’s all [00:25:03] wonder and beauty and it’s exists within our physical world.

[00:25:08] The soul is so unknowable. [00:25:12] The other thing I was thinking about the to today actually, that I, I wouldn’t mind talking to you about, is that how we [00:25:21] talk about the divine. Or the universe or whatever you believe in as this unknowable source, something [00:25:30] that is mysterious. And yet most people go around, go about their business claiming or pretending that [00:25:39] they know what is this, that, what is this about us, this ego.

[00:25:42] It is al thing that we always think we must say that we know. [00:25:48] Mm-hmm. We the divine, the soul, the great. Things that we channel, it’s all mysterious and that mystery is [00:25:57] beautiful. So you ask me, do I channel, I don’t know, and again. I think I do, but I like [00:26:06] that space of mystery that sometimes I love it. I feel these things and I don’t know what it is, and I accept it as something that I [00:26:15] don’t know and I don’t understand.

[00:26:17] Julie: That’s beautiful. Let’s start here. I love it. That’s perfect. [00:26:24] Sufi mysticism, maybe you can describe that. And then let’s go back to who is atar, what was his life? What brought [00:26:33] him to writing this work? A lot of people have heard of Rumi, but you say that ATAR is actually [00:26:42] Rumi’s master. So Rumi learned everything that he knew from AAR and built off of AAR’s work, which I think is just [00:26:51] fascinating.

[00:26:51] Sholeh Wolpé: Yeah, so Rumi wrote, and this will establish AAR’s position. He said [00:27:00] that Atar traveled the seven cities of love while I am still at the bend of the thirst alley [00:27:09] tar, considered Rumi, considered ATAR master. And ATARs work is, I tell you, it’s [00:27:18] soul changing. The reason we know Rumi better than ATAR right now is that ATAR was [00:27:27] never properly translated.

[00:27:29] Mm-hmm. He was, one of his masterpieces was translated about 40 years ago by a scholar, but it’s a [00:27:36] hard book to read. It’s not accessible, and so that was it. Coleman bark an American poet basically, who doesn’t [00:27:45] speak a lick of Persian, by the way. He translated Rumi’s work through a translation. Okay? [00:27:54] So he took a translator’s work and turned it into accessible work.

[00:27:59] Okay? Something that people could read and be [00:28:03] inspired by, and that’s how Rumi took off. Okay. Rumi took off very deservedly ’cause he’s a great [00:28:12] master, but no one knew his master Atar because ATAR wasn’t translated until now. Wow. And I [00:28:21] translated the conference of the Birds, which is his masterpiece a few years ago, which was published by Norton to great acclaim.

[00:28:29] [00:28:30] And it was, it’s the story of the birds of the world who take off. In search of the Great Seymour, which is this [00:28:39] beloved, the Divine, and the Huo, which is this beautiful bird with a gorgeous crown, leads them through seven [00:28:48] valleys to get there. And in the end, when they arrive there, they find that the great see more of the divine.[00:28:57]

[00:28:57] All they can see from him is in a mirror. And that they themselves are the divine that they [00:29:06] are. Ah, see themselves in the mirror and they say, ah, that is the divine and that is us at the same time. Oh, [00:29:15] that, that’s so powerful. It’s so beautiful. That’s Atar is the conference of the birds. Atar was a 12th century Sufi [00:29:24] master.

[00:29:25] And Sufi is a great tradition, very much like the Zen in other traditions [00:29:33] is, is basically about the journey of the soul within and cleansing itself. That when you are [00:29:42] still within the confines of your body, you can experience the divine. And that is probably, I think, something that probably you [00:29:51] do because you are in connection with this.

[00:29:54] Other words, and you may call it angels, but that’s just a name, [00:30:00] right? We use language. We don’t have other vocabulary for what we are experiencing. So when you experience that [00:30:09] going within and coming out cleansing yourself. It’s called a, it’s a Sufi journey. [00:30:18] Now, what Attor talks about, he says that he uses the metaphor of a great ocean as the [00:30:27] divine.

[00:30:27] He says, all of us without exception are moving towards this great ocean, and our job is to [00:30:36] cleanse ourselves of our lower self, which is our ego self. All through this journey, cleanse yourself so that when [00:30:45] you arrive at the ocean, you arrive as a drop of water, pure water, you can join the ocean, become the [00:30:54] ocean, know the ocean, but if you arrive at the ocean as a pebble, because all your life you’ve just been [00:31:03] all about your ego and tyranny and this and that.

[00:31:06] The ocean doesn’t refuse. She says, come in. But what happens to a couple? It [00:31:12] sinks to the bottom and only knows itself for eternity. Oh my God. I think that’s, hell yes. If we talk about hell, we [00:31:21] talk about like inferno and fire. No, it’s the place. Hell is a place where you get to and you will never know the divine.[00:31:30]

[00:31:30] Julie: This is like putting so much together just in this day and age that we’re in, because I think what I’ve been feeling over the [00:31:39] last six months is how do I really get to be myself? We’re going on vacation next week and in five [00:31:48] days, and I’m like, do I not take my cell phone because they’re checking people’s cell phones.

[00:31:53] At airports right now and I [00:31:57] really felt something that I haven’t felt in the last 10 years, which is, oh, I’m not truly free to [00:32:06] be myself. I can’t be myself, and I just got something so big as you were speaking that this big aha moment of [00:32:15] they can never take that away. Just be free. Just be who you are.

[00:32:21] Keep that cleansed self. [00:32:24] ’cause I have done so much work on myself to be in that high vibration and just to be one with all that is. And as you are [00:32:33] free and just being yourself, no matter what happens, they can’t take that away because the only thing that could return me to [00:32:42] being the pebble is. Allowing myself to dim my energy, to dim who I am, my personality, the way [00:32:51] that the angels are calling me, not do it because of the bullying ness and retreat.

[00:32:56] And I don’t wanna retreat. I don’t wanna go back to [00:33:00] that old person. I was,

[00:33:01] Sholeh Wolpé: no,

[00:33:02] Julie: you know what you

[00:33:03] Sholeh Wolpé: are. We all are people who are in touch with their souls. Our wayfarers. [00:33:09] That’s what ATAR calls them. These wayfarers are the souls that are in constant movement towards that [00:33:18] final. Divine universe, whatever it is you believe in, it doesn’t matter.

[00:33:23] It’s the source. It’s the source that we’re moving towards, [00:33:27] and that is what matters. A author tells us there are those that stop in their journey because they [00:33:36] stop to worry about. How am I being seen? Am I doing this right? Oh, that person’s belief sucks, [00:33:45] or this person is ugly, or that person shouldn’t have done this.

[00:33:48] And we pass judgments or worry about others passing judgments on us. [00:33:54] And then we begin to see a puddle gathering around our foot, and we imagine. In our [00:34:03] egos, imagine we have arrived at the Great Ocean, whereas we are drowning in our own puddle. Yeah. And that’s what happens. My [00:34:12] advice to you is that, or to anyone who’s listening, be yourself, be a wayfarer without fear.

[00:34:20] Knowing [00:34:21] who you are, and don’t worry. The person who stops you, the person who judges you, is drowning in his or her own puddle. [00:34:30] Feel sorry for them. Don’t be afraid of your, what’s your own journey? Feel sorry for them. Reach out to [00:34:39] them if you can, to give them a helping hand to make ’em a Wayfair. But if they don’t wanna listen, that’s their own, that’s their own journey.

[00:34:47] Yeah, the horse says [00:34:48] no two birds journey the same. Everyone has their own path. So just continue on your own path. [00:34:57] Work on your own ego. He calls ego, that cyclone of calamities, [00:35:06] cyclone of Cal, we all have it. I have it. You have it. No matter how much we’re cleansing ourselves, still there is this ego [00:35:15] that wants to say, look at me.

[00:35:16] Look how wonderful I am. Look how much good I’m doing. That’s the ego. Even in that point, we have to [00:35:24] say, oh. You have to stop and say, oh, did I do that good thing? Because I needed an audience. I needed people to clap for me and say, what a good [00:35:33] person I am. No, we shouldn’t do that. So a lot of these beautiful wisdoms I’ve collected [00:35:42] from across a tars work and put them in a book called The Invisible Sun.

[00:35:48] Which is coming out this August, [00:35:51] and I urge all your listeners to. To put that book on the [00:36:00] side of their bed and by the side of their bed and read a passage at least every night, and think about it, because we need light [00:36:09] in this world. Yeah, we need ATARs wisdom, and we need it to bring it into our hearts and into our souls.

[00:36:17] He [00:36:18] doesn’t sugarcoat wisdom for us. He doesn’t stroke our ego. He tells it like it is. I, before I tell, can you read a passage? Yeah, [00:36:27] no, it’s just that I wanted to read you this because I opened this, but totally by chance, and I was like, I got shivers. Let’s see [00:36:36] if I kept the passage here. I gotta blow my

[00:36:38] Julie: nose.

[00:36:39] I’ve just been crying nonstop. I’m like having a physical moment with you here of just [00:36:45] completely feeling everything that you’re saying and it’s just bringing in this other vision. He wrote,

[00:36:53] Sholeh Wolpé: and I [00:36:54] opened this totally by chance. This is what I love about this book. It says, those who spill blood in tyranny become dusty.[00:37:03]

[00:37:03] Nothings in tombs, laid to rest beneath the earth. Restless unrest. The [00:37:12] this is this Tyra that’s happening in the world right now. Don’t worry about it. These tyrants. They will eventually turn to [00:37:21] dust. Mm-hmm. And ATAR says they will have a very unrestful rest for the rest of their lives. He also, like for [00:37:30] example, talks about that every person carries snakes and scorpions within them.

[00:37:37] And he [00:37:39] says, don’t wake them up within yourself. Keep ’em quiet. Don’t ever bring them up. Because what happens is that when you wake them up, [00:37:48] then for eternity, they’re gonna bite you. Yeah. He says, be careful about these things.

[00:37:55] Julie: Let’s say, let’s, I get that. [00:37:57] I get that on a deep level. ’cause I think it’s hard not to read the news and feel this tense clenching within your [00:38:06] physical body of just feeling just so upset or just feeling like, how can this be or how.

[00:38:14] And that [00:38:15] creates more division. And again, back to what the angels keep showing me is to your point in what he wrote in that moment, [00:38:24] stop. Ask God, ask your angels, what can I do? What can I actually do? And you might hear, pray, or you might hear, have a [00:38:33] conversation, or you might hear, go do something or create something to show the way to others.

[00:38:39] But if we could just. [00:38:42] Pause in that moment and not go into hate or to rage or those scorpions within ourselves. Mm-hmm. But say to ourselves, what can I [00:38:51] actually do in this moment? And then go focus on one of those things. Is that how we stay in our true, [00:39:00] authentic, sore self?

[00:39:02] Sholeh Wolpé: Yes. And at the same time, we must constantly be on the move.

[00:39:07] At the same time, [00:39:09] we must never stop, never be happy with who we are and know that there is more something we can learn, something we [00:39:18] can do.

[00:39:18] Julie: What does he say about that? Because that’s been coming up over and over again and I’ve been trying to understand it. It seems like it’s [00:39:27] just. Not in our human DNA, but like in our soul’s wiring to never settle, but to [00:39:36] continue bettering and bettering ourselves.

[00:39:39] And it’s interesting because I keep seeing that and getting that message. And my husband even said [00:39:45] to me, we are having a conversation the other day, and he said, Julie, I think there’s a large population of people who don’t. Realize [00:39:54] that’s what they’re supposed to be doing is actually continuing to better themselves.

[00:40:00] Sholeh Wolpé: Yes, and to bettering yourself. [00:40:03] There are many, some people think that to better yourself means you give to charity or you take pie to your neighbor, or [00:40:12] you take care of that child. Those are good deeds, but to better yourself, you have to constantly work on your ego self. [00:40:21] That is mostly what Atar constantly warns us about because he says that part of us that [00:40:30] keeps that sometimes E.

[00:40:32] Okay. For example, let me read this to you. Yeah, yeah. He says, don’t be diluted by the Fal. [00:40:39] Light of your ego. It’s entangled in illusions. Mired in imaginings. Watch out. [00:40:48] Your ego brightening. The way is a scorpion’s sting. It is death. So what happens is that sometimes we’re [00:40:57] walking and we see the road before us brightened and Atar says, be careful because it might be your ego lightening the way, [00:41:06] not the source of the divine, not the divine source.

[00:41:09] And I can’t stress how important it is to [00:41:15] constantly. Be aware of that to constantly try to make yourself like that metaphorical, pure drop as you [00:41:24] move towards the ocean and cleanse yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I think you’re absolutely right. The journeying is very important. [00:41:33] So good for you.

[00:41:34] Julie: Thank you. You talk about that journey of the soul within cleansing yourself.

[00:41:40] What are some [00:41:42] tangible ways that ATAR says, this is how you cleanse with keeping that eye on the ego? Is there [00:41:51] any like rules or parameters that he gives of go do this and then do this? Or how does he say that cleansing [00:42:00] unfolds?

[00:42:01] Sholeh Wolpé: This is what I, this is what I love about his work in the conference of the birds.

[00:42:08] For [00:42:09] example, he gives parables. He doesn’t believe in instruction. He’s not a preacher. Okay? This is what I love [00:42:18] about him. He doesn’t preach. He doesn’t say Do this because he says, I don’t know every individual journeys differently. Yes, but [00:42:27] then he says, but then he tells us like funny stories. For example, I’ll tell you a very funny one.

[00:42:34] There is this [00:42:36] very important teacher. Of course, this is like 12th century, right? So on his donkey, and he’s like ambling along and his students, as [00:42:45] far as the eye can see are following him. And he looks, and then as he’s going around, suddenly his donkey farts and [00:42:54] he gets very upset. He starts crying, sobbing.

[00:42:59] He gets off this donkey, he’s inconsolable. [00:43:03] And his followers say, but Sheik, come on. It’s okay. It was your donkey. It wasn’t you. It’s fine. You don’t need to be so upset. [00:43:12] And he says, no, you don’t understand. I. As we were going along, I looked at my followers and I said, wow, look at me. I’m such a, [00:43:21] I’m in such a high station that when I die, I am going to be sitting with Jesus and Moses and all those high people because I’m such a [00:43:30] holy man and I have so many followers.

[00:43:32] And just as I thought that my donkey farted, in other words, the donkey had an [00:43:39] answer for my, to my ego, right? And so I think I love these stories because Attor gives us that [00:43:48] story and he lets you think about what you need to do.

[00:43:51] Julie: Yeah.

[00:43:51] Sholeh Wolpé: How many times have we had that moment when we say, oh, I am so [00:43:57] accomplished.

[00:43:57] Oh, I’m such a good cook, or I’m such a good person and I. There should be a donkey who farts right there before [00:44:06] us. So that remind us that is not so he gives instructions in that sense. Yeah. The [00:44:15] invisible sun. What it does, what I have collected is just beautiful passages that you can even just [00:44:24] open at random, and I swear it speaks to you.

[00:44:27] I’ve done this with my friends. We sit around and they open a page at random and [00:44:33] they read it. They have a question. They ask a question, they open it at random, and oh my God, every time it answers it in [00:44:42] such an unexpected wow. Gorgeous way and it always astonishes me. So [00:44:51] the book is not a book of, this is how you, where you screw it in and this is how you turn it and this is you step to the [00:45:00] right, you step to the left.

[00:45:01] It’s no one can instruct us that way because that’s preaching because we are all. Different [00:45:09] individuals. We come from different backgrounds, we have different beliefs, but the guidance, the spiritual guidance is, [00:45:18] is speaks to every individual differently.

[00:45:21] Julie: Yeah. Does that make sense? Completely. I think that when you have those parables or [00:45:27] those stories, you take them back into your own life and you, your intuition activates, which I believe is your soul self coming through, [00:45:36] God coming through your spirit team, and they’re able to speak with you sometimes on an even deeper level than teaching itself because [00:45:45] it opens you up to that voice within, which should always be guiding us.

[00:45:50] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. [00:45:54]

[00:45:54] Sholeh Wolpé: I have always thought of our bodies as like radio radios. Yeah. You know how you have radios and you [00:46:03] and our soul is the broadcaster. And when you tune in to your souls will speak to you. But when you That’s exactly how I [00:46:12] wrote it

[00:46:12] Julie: in

[00:46:12] Sholeh Wolpé: the

[00:46:12] Julie: book.

[00:46:13] Sholeh Wolpé: Yes, yes. Yeah. And if you’re constantly outta tune with your soul, you are getting mumble [00:46:21] jumbo messages.

[00:46:22] That makes no sense. Yep. A hundred percent. So it’s literally about fine tuning yourself.

[00:46:29] Julie: [00:46:30] Yes. So how many books did AAR write?

[00:46:37] Sholeh Wolpé: Many books have [00:46:39] been the, because this is 12th century over the years, there are many hundreds of books that have been attributed to him, [00:46:48] but, but really, scholars say it’s no more than 40, but far less than that.

[00:46:56] His [00:46:57] masterpiece. That is astounding work is the conference of the birds that has, yeah, that has all the stories in it, and now [00:47:06] the invisible sun. I have basically gone to the garden of ATAR and picked. The most [00:47:15] beautiful of the flowers for you. Things that have really spoken to me, and as a poet, I have brought them into English [00:47:24] language, the way you can connect to them.

[00:47:27] Yeah, so I think it’s, I think the invisible sun is going to [00:47:33] be Julie. It’s gonna be life changing for you. Oh, I can’t wait to, it’s gonna come out in August. I, if I had a copy, I’d send you one, but I don’t have a copy yet. It’s [00:47:42] coming out August. In August, and I’m telling you, it’s gonna be one of those books that you’re going to just cherish for the rest of your life because [00:47:51] it’s not about this religion or that religion, your God or my God.

[00:47:57] Atar says you should be able to walk [00:48:00] into a temple. Into a synagogue, into a mosque, or into a temple of idolaters and only see the beloved, [00:48:09] only see, walk in and smell the beloved. It doesn’t matter what structure. You walk into Yeah. What, what the [00:48:18] hardened systematic beliefs are. It’s all we forget. We forget.

[00:48:22] It’s all about the divine. Yeah. We forget it’s about the soul. [00:48:27] Yeah. We get, we get too busy with judging one another based on hardened philosophies and beliefs. [00:48:36] Wake up people. Yeah. Wake up. Wake up to your soul. Yes.

[00:48:41] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a vibration Does. I love the [00:48:45] story that you told, and I’m gonna take that with me for forever of that.

[00:48:49] He journeyed to see God and all of it they saw was like a [00:48:54] reflection of themselves in his work. Does a tar talk about the beloved in any other [00:49:03] way of what God the beloved is?

[00:49:09] Sholeh Wolpé: And therefore don’t try to [00:49:12] guess what it is. He says that we can only know the divine through looking into a mirror. [00:49:21] Yeah. ’cause if you look directly at the sun, you will go blind.

[00:49:25] So you have to look the beauty of the beloved through [00:49:30] reflection. Amazing. And when you look in the mirror, you become one with the reflection. You see yourself and you see the reflection of the sun. [00:49:39] Inside of you as well, and it’s a magnificently beautiful image. I did a performance of [00:49:48] this that it leads up to this moment for the Getty Villa Museum.

[00:49:53] If your audience go online and put in my [00:49:57] name and put Getty Villa Museum, they will see it’s called Persia After Dark, and then it’s a. It’s such a beautiful [00:50:06] performance of the whole

[00:50:07] Julie: story. I just loved this time together. I am sending everyone in the world who needs [00:50:15] love, who needs God, who needs their own soul, self, just energy and love and solei.

[00:50:22] Tell everybody where they can [00:50:24] find you, your beautiful works books, and we’ll put all of that information in the show notes below.

[00:50:30] Sholeh Wolpé: Yes, so my name [00:50:33] is Shale Wape. I think you can look at the spelling. It’s S-H-O-L-E-H-W-O-L-P-E, and you can go to my [00:50:42] website. But the book that I really want everyone to really have and hold and love is called The Invisible Sun.

[00:50:50] It’s coming [00:50:51] out from Harper Collins and it this August. Honestly, contact me. You can contact me through my website. Let me know [00:51:00] what you think. Let me know how it has changed your life, and if you have questions, follow me on social media. I will post little [00:51:09] bits and things, and it’s just such a pleasure talking to you, Julie.

[00:51:14] It’s so nice to speak to someone who is [00:51:18] connected to her soul. I

[00:51:19] Julie: feel the same. I felt it come up a couple of times. I’ve only asked two or three other people in the last [00:51:27] six years if they wanted to do a series together, but I know you’re gonna be busy with the book tour. If after that you’re [00:51:36] bored and you want to do a series together, I’d love to go even deeper.

[00:51:41] That would be lovely.

[00:51:42] Sholeh Wolpé: Yeah. We can talk about. That, [00:51:45] and I hope you hear from your audience about what they think because that would Yeah, I would really be curious. One of the things [00:51:54] about darkness, we are living in an ever darkening world. What cuts through darkness is light. And I want all of us, [00:52:03] if all of us band together and become these rays of light, there would be no more darkness.

[00:52:09] We just have to do it. [00:52:12] And that we are all. We’re all important. We all matter regardless of our educational background, regardless of our [00:52:21] color skin, up, down, we are souls. Why can’t we understand that? I know. Let everybody be ego. [00:52:30]

[00:52:30] Julie: Yes. Let everybody and yeah, I think you nailed it. Oh, this is so beautiful. So many nuggets of wisdom to take home, [00:52:39] and I cannot wait to have the invisible sun on my bedside table.

[00:52:44] I am gonna go pre-order it right now. Thank you so much [00:52:48] for just the beautiful, wonderful soul that you are, sole and for all that you do and the beautiful work that you put into this world. Thank you. Thank you for [00:52:57] having me. Yes, of course.