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Breaking the Self-Sabotage Cycle: A Conversation on Confidence and Self-Talk – with Katie Horwitch

Guest Interview

Hello beautiful souls! We’re changing things up a bit here as we listen in as Katie Horwitch (author of Want Your Self) holds a transformative coaching session with Julie’s best friend, Sarah. Throughout this candid conversation, Katie shares practical strategies for kicking out self-sabotage and shifting the negative self-talk into proactive language. As Sarah opens up about her struggles with the highs and lows of life, Katie offers a refreshing perspective on building confidence amidst the chaos of work, family, and personal expectations. This episode will challenge you into believing, “What if I am enough?”

To learn more about Katie Horwitch and her work:
[IG] @KatieHorwitch
Her book Want Your Self is available at all major book retailers


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Julie Jancius: Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening Podcast. I’m your host and author, Julie Jancius. And today we have on the author of Want Yourself, Katie Horwitch. Shift your self talk and unearth the strength in who you were all along. Friends, I love this concept so much. Katie is a coach. She’s going to talk you out of your own self doubt, your self negativities, right? And really coach you through that. And so we’ve done about 500 episodes with the podcast, and I thought we’d shake it up a little bit. I’m bringing my bestie on the show, Sarah. I walked into, if you didn’t hear this podcast episode, walked into her room freshman year of college and just said, we’re going to be best friends, and we have been ever since. And I thought, Katie, you would be just like, the greatest person to coach Sarah today. So, Sarah, I’m going to intro you because you’re reading Katie’s book, and you had, like, this great Aha. Moment this morning of the Intro to the book you wer reading.

Sarah: So, first of all, thank you for having me on. I was reading the prologue and talking about negative self talk, which I am, an expert at negative self talk. And my humor tends to be self deprecating. So sometimes I think that leaks in too. But in the prologue, Katie had this wonderful thing where she talks about high highs and low lows, and I found that to be so true. Where I will be so negative on myself and just low, low know, impostor syndrome. You don’t know what you’re doing. You look horrible. What’s going on? You have no friends, whatever it is. But then there’s also moments where you have these high highs because you think, no self love. Let’s love ourselves. So you’re the best. You’re doing great. Look how wonderful you look. Look at you killing it with those school lunches. Look at you being a friend, and then a mistake happens, or you drop the ball or whatever happens in life, and it’s. Well, see, how dare you think highly of yourself and think you’re doing good because you’re nothing. And how dare you give yourself that confidence and you just think you’re the best, aren’t you? And you’re not. And it just– It. Pendulum, the pendulum swings from the high highs to the low lows. And I thought that was such a great way to put it in the book.

Julie Jancius: Yeah. And it’s like, that’s how it works. So, Katie, welcome.

Katie Horwitch: Yes. I feel so honored to be here. Not just honored to be on your show, but also welcomed into this very inner circle of you and Sarah today. I feel very special. So thank you so much for having me on.

Julie Jancius: Yeah, thanks for being willing to do this.

Katie Horwitch: So let’s start out here.

Julie Jancius: We all have these high highs, these low lows, and then you add on top of it. I know I’m going through perimenopause. You have all these different hormones swinging in. And where do you start to– We’ve got these little tools that we’ve been using for the last ten years. We’ve all been talking about the same tools. What really kicks out that saboteur, that self doubt?

Katie Horwitch: Yeah, I think that even before, say, liKe, going to the solution of things, it’s actually more about looking at the language we’re using to describe things. Right? Things like you said. How do we kick out this self saboteur? This is a big thing that a lot of people talk about, and a lot of people think that we can stop our negative self talk. In reality, we don’t want to stop our negative self talk, because then that means that we are robots, we are humans, and negative self talk is in the book. I talk about self talk like a language that we learn. And it’s helpful to think of negative self talk more like a dialect that we’re speaking within that language. Or if it’s something that has really overpowered us and has really become this narrative, this self told story. It’s all of that negative self talk. It’s like a language that we became fluent in without even realizing it. So it’s not necessarily about stopping the negative self talk. It’s about shifting and making that what I’ve been referring to as sort of turnover rate, of, feeling those feelings like Sarah was talking about, of, oh, I must be so, like, why should I even think this about myself? Why should I do this? Taking that and shifting quicker, so not never thinking those things, because that is a very unrealistic goal, but working to bounce back, if you will, quicker. Because we can get into this sort of negative self talk loop within the negative self talk loop of, I’m saying these things. I should know better than that. I must be a horrible person, that I can’t deal with this within myself. So we end up having these feelings, and then the feelings about the feelings, and then the feelings about the feelings that are about the feelings. And it becomes this mess that we sort of feel like we are trapped by, when really it’s just about uncovering the bits and pieces and getting curious and finding the information that’s under there so we can start to learn that more proactive language. Perfect.

Julie Jancius: Sarah, what’s coming up for you kind of as you’re hearing Katie talk and as you’re going through life right now, that maybe you want to dive into some more specific examples of life and how we unpack that there?

Sarah: Great question. Not sure, but we’ll talk it out. So, first of all, the spiral I relate to, because it’s like, yes, you have the negative self talk, and then you feel negative about having the negative self talk. And how dare you talk negatively about yourself. And you’re supposed to love yourself and love self love and love love, and then there’s no win. It seems like there’s no win. I don’t know if I have specific life examples right now. For me, I am.

Katie Horwitch: Over capacity.

Sarah: My bandwidth is nonexistent between work and work is super busy right now, which isn’t it for everyone, but truly, I do have major installs going on. And then kids, I have two little kids at home. I have a first grader. I have a just turned three year old on Tuesday. so we’re dealing with going from being baby to toddler to three. Major phase we have going from being a little kid to actually in school and all the emotions that go with that and the transitioning of that. And then I have a husband that I have to have to, but I want to meet his needs and be a great, partner to him. And I have parents. Like, over the weekend, we had my mother’s 70th and my daughter’s birthday party. And who’s going to make the cakes?

Katie Horwitch: Me.

Sarah: And who’s going to feel stressed out and feel like she’s messing everything up? so as I’m talking out loud, pressure. I think I put a lot of pressure on myself and then beat myself up when things don’t go perfectly weird.

Katie Horwitch: I mean, that all makes perfect sense. I think any one of those things that you just mentioned would be a big thing by itself, and you have them all happening at once, which sort of is kind of like life, right? Like, when it rains, it pours. When the sun is shining, it’s like glaring. life just sort of comes at us. And I think what you mentioned about having no bandwidth and sort of being not at capacity, but over capacity. You also talked about how you have a tendency to self deprecate and self deprecating, whether it’s humor or ways that you talk more colloquially to bond with other people. I’m not going to say those are bad things. First of all, those are literal studies show that we bond stronger many times over negativity than over positivity. So if you look at it from just, a brain perspective, your brain says, oh, I’m going to connect with these people. If I self deprecate, that’ll be an easier connection. So you’re on your own side. You’re looking for all the good things and also not, but. And with work, with the two kids. Happy belated birthday to your kid, by the way. Also, your mother, 70th, you said, yeah, so happy belated to your mother, as well. So you’ve got all of these different mini and mega milestones. It makes sense that the language that you’re sort of, I don’t want to say reverting to, but leaning on to support you is the one that you’ve become fluent in and that you have been practicing. And I think that’s why I’m so passionate about, even when people say to me, because there are these people who are like, I have done so much air quotes work on myself, I don’t think that I have negative self talk at this point in my life. I’m like, no, first of all, again, you’re a human, not a robot. And also, life is going to happen, and there are going to be moments that sort of throw you for a loop. And shifting your negative self talk is a practice, literally, like, you have to practice it so it makes perfect sense to me. I don’t know if this is any consolation, but that is what’s coming up for you right now. It’s not actually about what is happening in your life. It’s that you are so over capacity that the thing that actually feels the most familiar is the negative self talk and the self deprecation, because you don’t have to think about that. That’s just how you naturally are in other scenarios outside of this. Does that make sense?

Sarah: Yeah. It’s the ugly old pair of sweatpants that we all go to when we’re feeling crummy and we want to put it on, and they may not look good, it may not be pretty, it may not be nice, but for the moment, you feel okay. And for me, beating myself up internally, internal dialogue is the gross, old, comfy pair of sweatpants.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. Oh, I love that analogy because it’s also like. And I think a lot of this experienced this in 2020 in particular, when we are used to putting on the old sweatpants. And, look, I am a big fan of the Sweatpants life. The laying on the couch, the staring at the ceiling, all of that. But when that’s what you’re putting on over and over, and then, like, what happened to many of us a few years ago, you end up having to put on what I call hard pants. So they are not stretchy. They, are usually not, like, tufted and cozy on the inside, like sweatpants. It starts to feel like you put it on. You’re like, oh, my gosh, this is so uncomfortable. These are so uncomfortable to put on. Or maybe, God forbid, you have to go to a, fancy event and wear something that is more formal. Then it feels like, oh, I’m not comfortable in this because all I’ve been used to is going to the sweatpants. It’s not that those clothes don’t work on you because that’s the negative self talk and sort of the narrative that can start. Right. Well, there must be something wrong with me. I don’t feel comfortable in this. Well, I must not look comfortable, and I’m just not meant to wear clothes like this, and I don’t fit in. Like, it can really go down this loop. And what it really is, is now you’re just used to wearing sweatpants.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.

Katie Horwitch: So when you talk about. And Julie, I don’t know how much you want me to just keep on going with this.

Julie Jancius: Yes, Coach Sarah, you can just take it away.

Sarah: I love.

Katie Horwitch: I also. I want to say, and we talked about this right before we started the podcast episode, that, because I do do one on one coaching with people, I take confidentiality very seriously, and there are certain things that are more intimate and more close to the heart. So we did have a little conversation, and if there’s anything that comes up that Sarah’S like, ooh, that was a little too personal. Just anyone who’s listening, I want them to know that we are not going to be sharing anything without Sarah’s okay. We are doing this all within integrity and ethically.

Julie Jancius: Yes, 100%. Actually, I had just gotten off the conversation with Sarah when I got your email about your book and, people writing in that you wanted to be on the show. And so I was like, oh, this is perfect. Yes. I got to connect these two.

Katie Horwitch: I love that. So it was like, I mean, we were destined to meet no matter what, whether we were going to do it with other people listening or not. I love that.

So, I guess, Sarah, my question for you is, I mean, there’s two parts of this. You say this is something that you, I don’t know if you actually use this word or not or if I’m putting words in your mouth, but that you struggle with or that’s present in your life. It seems like it’s something that bugs you. Am I correct?

Sarah: Yes. Because I am someone, which I’m assuming most people have this maybe not. I have a constant running dialogue in my head. I always have. I can’t remember not having just a running dialogue in my head. And it tends to be pretty negative, and it tends to be self doubt and tends to be negative. I’ve always struggled with it and I have been in therapy, and it’s affirmations and daily affirmations, and just when you get those negative thoughts, you substitute something positive in which okay. But then that just becomes one, more thing to fail at, and then you can just go back into the cycle. Right. But, yeah, and I like how you’re saying that no matter, you’re going to have negative self talk, right? And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, because if it’s only positive and how great you are, then I feel like that’s just egotistical and probably not the best either. However, there must be some fine, medium area there. yes. No, I’ve always just beaten myself up. I just always feel like I’m not good enough. I haven’t done it right. I always am failing. I’m always doing something wrong. I just never think whether it’s physically, emotionally, professionally, motherly, like, whatever role I’m in, I always feel like I’m letting someone down and not doing it right.

Katie Horwitch: Do you literally always. Are there times where you don’t feel like you’re letting someone?

Sarah: I would say 90% of the time. Not all hyperbolic. I would say almost always.

Katie Horwitch: Okay.

Sarah: I feel like there’s probably like an hour a week where I’m like, okay, I got something. I did.

Katie Horwitch: Cool, yeah, tell me about that hour.

Sarah: I’m not saying the consecutive hour. I’m saying bits and pieces here, you.

Katie Horwitch: Know, about the cumulative hour.

Sarah: The fact that I every day managed to get a little note into my daughter’s lunchbox. I feel like, yeah, I’m being a good mom. I did that. or when. Okay, maybe it’s just the lunches. No. Or like getting my kid, like, whenever I get the kids to school on time, which is every day, or getting them ready for when I’m doing the good mom stuff, that’s when I feel like, okay, I’ve got this, I’m doing it.

Katie Horwitch: Cool. So it sounds like, at least those two examples, and then sort of how you wrapped that up. It sounds like it has to do with your kids. Really? Yes. Is the other 90% that you were talking about the proverbial always, does that have to do with things other than your kids? It could still do with your kids, but is there other stuff in there, too?

Sarah: Yeah, I would say definitely feel imposter syndrome with my job and career, because I just do, I would say familial. I feel sometimes I’m not doing enough as an aunt or doing enough as a sister or doing enough as a daughter. And my family would not say that. They’d be like, what is wrong with you’re doing above and beyond? And I think they would argue against that and be heartbroken to know I feel that way, but I do. and then towards my husband, I do feel like I’m a pretty good partner, but there are times, of course, I’m, like, probably could step up and do better there, but I would say professionally, friendship wise, I always feel like I’m not a good friend and I flake out and I’m a horrible friend there. I guess relationships, really, when it comes to relationships and then professionally, overall, are the, negatives.

Julie Jancius: I can say from having known Sarah since 1999, 2000 ish, the bestest friend you will ever have. She says that all the time. I feel like I don’t talk about what’s happening with you enough or what’s going on with you. I feel like I don’t call. She is the most considerate. I feel like I learned how to be a considerate person because she is the most considerate person I have ever met, hands down in my entire life.

Sarah: Yes. Well, that’s very nice. Thank you.

Katie Horwitch: And I’ll also say I, am at least yet to meet a person who is actually a bad friend, quote unquote, who really is a bad friend. I think that I hear so many similarities. I feel like I relate to you so much when you’re talking about these things, because relationships are really important to me m as well. And I am also a very highly sensitive person who is also a recovering people pleaser. And I want to make sure that everybody in my life is happy and taken care of, and that they know that I’m, on their side and invested in them. And when we’re thinking of those things, it’s sort of like those are very open ended, big things. Right? So it makes sense to me that the 10% where you’re like, cool, I feel like I’ve got it. These are more finitely concluded events. I put a note into the lunchbox, therefore, the note is now in the lunchbox, and my kid is going to get that. And that is a thing that happened. I got my kids to school. They are now at school. That’s different than this sort of big, open, obtuse thing of, am I being a good enough friend? Am I being a good enough coworker, daughter, wife, aunt, whatever you want to say. And there’s a few ways that we can go here. I think a lot of times when I work with people who feel the ways that you do, so, first of all, you’re so not alone. This is so freaking common with so many people. This idea of enoughness is really interesting to dive into because I think we say it without actually knowing what enough would be. And I think this alone, look, we’re not looking to basically like, Katie, change my life in the course of 40 minutes, but what I hope to provide is maybe just some things to think about in a new way. So when it comes to the concept of enough, a lot of times it’s really easy to think of what is not enough. Do you know, especially for you, who’s someone who is, I’m guessing, a little more goal oriented or is motivated by those, benchmarks, do you know what enough would look like, feel like to you?

Sarah: No, I don’t.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah.

Sarah: Which then makes me feel bad and then negative self talk. Right. I’m someone who would love to have a goal, but I’ve never been able to come up with, I don’t know.

Katie Horwitch: Okay, so another question. We’re just going to go down the hard question route because we are here. Do it. We’re doing freaking do it. How do you know that you are not enough?

Sarah: I think having a, gross feeling that’s too strong. Having negative feelings. I’m trying to think of a word besides negative, but having a feeling that is not positive or just feeling unsettled, or having a constant feeling of anxiety or guilt makes me think that, well, clearly I’m doing something wrong because I’m feeling that way.

Katie Horwitch: Okay, interesting. So it’s the uncomfortable. I really like that you said the word unsettled, because that’s not, I mean, you said negative. You said, I think, gross before you said guilt. But unsettled is like, I want to double click into that. What does it feel like to you to be settled?

Sarah: I don’t know if I ever have felt that way. I’m not saying there haven’t been brief periods of time throughout life where you feel like, I can imagine on my weding day, I felt happy and settled and fine because that’s all I cared about was marrying the love of my life or when my daughters were born. On those very momentous, special moments, yes, I felt settled and happy. But as far as day to day, I don’t. I’m constantly thinking, I should have done this, I could have done that. What did I do wrong? What am I forgetting? What is going like? I just constantly have that inner monologue of, you didn’t do enough, you didn’t do enough. There could always be more done. But here’s the fun flip side. Enjoys chilling on the TV, on, the couch, watching TV and binging and could I be doing. And then it’s like, well, look at me being a lazy person, not doing what I could be doing, and right now I could be doing something else. But no, you have to be lazy and sit on the couch and relax, don’t you? And it just being settled is not a feeling I understand, or no.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. I wonder. It also sounds like you said, very fleetingly, that, I think it was wedding day. And then maybe your kids birthday. Yeah.

Sarah: Their births.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. Births. Yes. So literal birthday. that you felt settled. And also those aren’t times that there is control. I think that settled, there’s, a relationship to sort of unpack around again the feelings about the feelings. So the unsettled feeling and then the feeling that that must be a bad thing because you said, I don’t know if I was actually unsettled in these other times, but I don’t know. Were there ways that you felt that made you feel more filled with, I guess, ease at those times?

Sarah: M maybe. Well, I think as far as wedding day goes, it was planned, it went great. It’s exciting. You’re marrying the person that you love. And ideally, and once you get to that day, what’s going to happen is happen. It’s out of your control and you can’t do anything else. For some reason, I was able to let it go that day, which I don’t know how or why, and who would have expected that, because we didn’t expect that. But I did, I think. And then, as far as the births go, again, it is what it is. Like, you go in and it happens how it happens, and you don’t have control. And I was able to release that control for some reason, which isn’t normally like me, because I do like to hang on to control and not let go of control.

Katie Horwitch: But that’s really good because now, and yes, these are not necessarily everyday examples, but they are examples from your life. Like, you do have proof somewhere that you’ve been able to release that control. And I wonder if, I know that you haven’t finished the book yet, but you’ll read in the book. I am a big fan of starting with the self part of self talk and not the talk part of self talk, because I am very much like you, where I can’t just look in the mirror and say, I love myself, I’m great. I feel like I’m lying to myself when I look in the mirror. And I actually don’t feel those ways because I have to feel that at my core first. That being said, there are certain, I don’t want to say talk or affirmations or mantras, but there are a few additions into your day to day life, which sounds so simple and not sexy, which I think that this world of wellness and mindset likes to make things more complicated and a little more sexy. But there’s certain things that you can sort of season in and pepper in and start to view as, okay, I’m building a new habit right now. I don’t have to feel good right now. I’m actually not going to make feeling good the goal. I’m just building a habit. So you said using your words with wedding and birth, it was sort of like, okay, it is what it is. Everything that could have, what has happened, has happened, and everything that is going to happen is just m going to happen. I wonder if you can Take some of that into your day to day life and tell yourself it’s okay to feel whatever way about this, because this is actually, the focus isn’t about the feelings right now. It’s about the habit building. Sort of like working out. When you want to start working out, it’s really hard to start and love working out. But the goal isn’t to love working out or to, I don’t know, build the strongest muscles. The habit is to go to the gym or step out of the house or pick up the weight. It doesn’t actually matter that you are picking up the strongest weight or that you love it or even that you look forward to it. I don’t care actually, about looking forward to it. You could hate it and you can fight it, but the fact that you go is that’s the first step of any habit building. So I, wonder what would happen if in these moments where you’re feeling like you’re not doing enough or you’re not being a, good enough. Fill in the blank. I wonder if practicing that. Oh, well, okay, maybe, but maybe not. It is what it is. I’m going to sit with that and I’m going to just practice doing that and, ugh, I hate this. This is so uncomfortable. This is not my favorite thing. Why did I agree to be on Julie’s podcast? I still love her and she’s still my best friend. But I wonder if just building that habit, or practice into your day, would start to give that narrative that you’ve created a little more support and it wouldn’t necessarily shift it all the way around to I am this amazing person all of the time and look at how great I am, and I stand behind that greatness and I am the best and I am enough and all of that. But you’re proving to yourself that you’re on your own side instead of your head and your heart thinking, oh, well, she’s just going to come over and criticize me now. What if that wasn’t the case? I wonder what would happen.

Sarah: That would be great. What would happen?

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. I mean, literally, what might happen if you said or believed I was enough or you didn’t have. I don’t know. Let’s take a really specific oNe, because I think we’re sort of dabbling in all of these different areas of life and they all bleed into each other. But let’s take the impostor syndrome. And you’re talking about work, and I know that you’re in a conference room m right now, so do you feel comfortable talking about that?

Sarah: Yeah. No, I’m in a phone booth. They can’t hear me.

Katie Horwitch: Okay, cool. Awesome. If you were to not feel impostor syndrome, let’s play. I loved this part of test taking in high school. Like the synonyms and antonyms. If you were not to feel impostor syndrome, what would you feel?

Sarah: I guess confident.

Sarah: Confident that I know what I’m doing. Knowledgeable.

Katie Horwitch: What else?

Sarah: I feel like I would feel an ease moving through life with ease.

Sarah: And life. I mean, professional life. That might be it. I don’t know if I have more than me.

Katie Horwitch: those are really good ones, really big ones that affect a lot of things. Yeah. And the ease kind of goes along with the. It is what it is. The releasing control. I mean, really, it even goes along with the sweatpants and it’s back to elastic. We’ve known each other for all of 37 minutes now, but I feel very close with you. And I feel like what I know from you is that it sounds like something that you do really value in your life, in your relationships, in your work, is ease. And maybe that’s why it bothers you so much that when you don’t feel that and you don’t feel that, like you said, settled feeling, which is good information. Like, so many times when we think about our, values or how we want to be, we’re so used to thinking of how we don’t want to be that we have no idea. So it’s really about, and this is literally a coaching session right now. And it’s what I do in all of my first coaching sessions. It’s really about connecting the dots and looking at the universal quantifiers or qualifiers, like you were saying, I always feel this way. Like, really? Do you always feel this way? Or. A lot of people say it’s always something. And looking at when it isn’t always that thing and what those times look like and how everything sort of relates into this little map that you can create where you’re finding out more information about yourself. Because it’s really hard to work toward going somewhere that you don’t know you’re going. You can’t go where you don’t know you’re going. And I grew up in LA, so I know like a lovely drive up the coast, which I love, but then at some point you’re like, oh, well, I’m going to have to turn around at some point, I think, where do I turn around? What did I want to get from this? I don’t know. I just thought driving up the coast was the thing that I wanted to do. So getting clear on these feelings of, okay, ease, knowledgeable, confident. Confident is something that I think a lot of us want to feel super confident all the time and we think of, actually. What do you think of when you think of confidence?

Sarah: I think of good posture. I think of standing up straight, walking into a room tall, head high, just feeling like you own the room. Not in a braggadocious way or in an, ostentatious way, but just like feeling comfortable. Feeling comfortable in your skin, really. It’s confidence and comfortability, which. There we go with ease again, I feel like goes hand in hand. When you see those people walking or anywhere just living, and it looks so effortless and easy and they just look like. They just look content and fine and everything seems great and it’s almost as if they’re gliding, like, to me, that’s confidence.

Katie Horwitch: It’s just.

Julie Jancius: Having that.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. I love that you said not in a braggadocious way, because I think, especially as women, we’re programmed from, and I, am an elder millennial, and so those of us who are in our thirty S and forty s, we grew up in the. Where confidence was really synonymous with narcissism or vanity. Yes, Julie?

Julie Jancius: Oh, no, I was going to let you finish and then I got something to.

Katie Horwitch: Oh, okay. but really, confidence. If you look up confidence in the dictionary, the literal definition, which I’m kind of obsessed with, is firm trust. Confidence is just trust. So if you’re able, and not you, but like the collective you, is able to think of confidence as trust, then the question doesn’t become, well, how can I be more confident? It becomes, well, how can I trust myself more? And there are very low lift ways to do that, like doing what you said you were going to do. This is one of the simplest things. But saying, I’m going to brush my teeth in the morning, and then brushing your teeth, like these little moments where we keep doing what we said we were going to do, like you saying, I’m going to put a note into my kids lunchbox, and then doing that, that is a moment of building confidence, even though we don’t necessarily think of those moments as building confidence. But again, to use the workout analogy, because I’ve also been in the fitness industry for the last 15 years, so that’s very easy for me. You don’t go to the gym and pick up the heaviest weight right off the bat. It’s picking up the one that feels the most manageable and non intimidating at the time and then working your way up, and all of a sudden, you notice that that weight feels lighter than it used to. So I guess I better pick up the other weight. Let’s see how that feels. And so it’s these little moments that sort of build on top of each other over and over that can build that self trust and self trust for me, it does feel like ease. It does feel effortless, which I think is a really interesting word, sort of like fearless, which, I don’t want to spoil it for you because you’re still reading the book. but I define fearlessness as when the fear that you have is less than the faith that you have in yourself. It’s not fear empty or fear not, or effort not. It’s effort less. So I think also giving yourself that grace to remind yourself that, yeah, there will still be some effort that comes in. It’s about being effort less, not effort more can also be, just an interesting sort of tool to add to your toolkit in these moments where you’re feeling like, okay, this is so hard. Okay, well, where can I pull back the effort here to make this a little more effort less? Julie, what were you going to say?

Julie Jancius: So, not to take away from how Sarah feels, but just to kind of. This is very eye opening, just having known you for so long, because Sarah is the person who is always dressed to the nines and dressed to kill, and just. I think that she radiates confidence even more so than I do. I feel like she’s a person who feels very comfortable, from the outside looking in. That’s what I would have always thought so. Not to take away, but I think this is really eye opening too, because you could be close to somebody for so long and not really recognize how they feel. And sometimes maybe even bypass, because from the outside looking in, it looks different.

Katie Horwitch: Totally. Sarah, do you feel like you, whether it’s feeling pressure or just like a desire, do you feel like you sort of put on your confidence costume when you walk? Oh, totally. In the morning.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s a sham. It’s a facade. It has been since I was little. and I do love fashion. I do like putting clothes together and styling and whatnot. so that is a place where I can find what good. Sometimes it’s best to work on ourselves from the outside in. I feel like I was saying that to Julie. I’m like, this year we’re going to work on the outside in. But, yeah, no, it’s totally a facade. Or, ah, if I feel like if I put together a cute outfit or whatever it is, then that can give me a little bit of a, ah, stiffer back and shoulders back and head held high so I can at least fake it till I make it. But the problem is I’ve been faking it since I can remember. Since youth. Exactly. And my mom always loved that she had two daughters and to dress them up, and my mom loves girly girls, and I tended to be more like that. And so that was also, we would bond over shopping and all those things too. So it was very easy for me to use that as a tool.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. And it sounds like it was instilled in you that whether you thought it overtly or not, this is something, oh, My mom loves this, therefore she loves me. Therefore this is a way that I can ensure love be a little bit.

Sarah: I think that might be reaching a little bit when it comes to m, my mom. But it was an easy tool for me to have to look good or to feel good when I went to school or not, whatever it is. And that way.

Katie Horwitch: Right.

Sarah: If I’m having a really bad day or I feel gross, I will put on a dress and heels and do myself up when I go into the office, because then at least if I feel like crap, at least I look good.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Sarah: Or at least in my mind, or like, do that.

Katie Horwitch: But, that’s very real. Certain things make us feel good.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Sarah: And I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, but it just wanted to be nice if the outside and the image I project matches what I felt on the inside. And I know that there’s a dichotomy there. I know people are probably like, what? I mean, growing up, it was never have to worry about Sarah’s self esteem. Oh. Don’t have to worry about her confidence. if I’m talking, it’s like. And she’s humble to boot as a joke, when it’s like, no, actually, I’m being boisterous because I actually feel quite the opposite. This is just being know. Don’t actually, don’t. Don’t look over here at what’s really going on. Just look at the dog and pony.

Katie Horwitch: Show, if you will. Right?

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Katie Horwitch: For anyone who’s listening, just like a little. Putting a little pin in. When you said, I think that’s a stretch with my mom. Anyone who’s listening, I think it’s not so much whether it’s a stretch or not. I think the bigger question is, how do we relate to these stories that existed in our life no matter what the other people thought? Because also, this is a perfect example of people thinking, oh, yeah, Sarah’s this, Sarah’s that. And you’re like, actually, you have no, like, so many times we don’t know what people are thinking or feeling or what their intentions were. But, yeah, to go back to working from the outside in and putting on the confidence costume. I’m so happy that we’re talking about this, because I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, I’ve been faking it till I make it. But then the problem is that I’ve been fake. I’ve never made it.

Sarah: Yeah, I’m m now 41, and I truly can remember being five and putting on my favorite outfit and just whatever. And just my whole life.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. And I think that it’s a very common experience, and not just common, but I think that it’s a very common suggestion that’s made to people of, well, you just got to fake it till you make it, and you have to pretend to be this way, but then you’re not actually honoring your feelings through it all. And so you’re creating this disconnect when. I mean, look, I am a part of the beehive, and so I am a fan of asking, like, what would Beyonce do? However, when you’re only asking, what would Beyonce do? And you’re never figuring out, okay, what would I do? Then you’re not developing that self trust and that self confidence. So I wonder if, like, the. And, I’m not pulling from thin air here. Like, you literally said it yourself, I wonder if, when you’re putting on a dress or an outfit or doing a certain thing. You say that you do it because it makes you feel good. I wonder if you can sit in the this makes me feel good versus this is going to and I don’t know if you do this, but this is going to make me confident. I wonder if something that to go back to wedding, birth of the kids, the feeling, the 10% of ease and settledness that you said that you did feel, that also feels like it was. And this is sort of like a buzzy word, so I don’t want to use it without really diving in, but we don’t have 3 hours together. But the word presence, it sounds like you were really present. And so I wonder if I’m not telling anyone to force presence and like I m am going to be here now and if I think of anything else and I’ve done presence wrong and I’m such a bad person. No, it’s not about that. But I’m wondering if certain things where you say, okay, I’m going to put on this outfit because I want to be confident that’s still looking in the future saying, okay, I’m going to put this on and sort of like fingers crossed. What about I’m going to put on this outfit because this makes me feel really good right now. And that’s a great thing. And now great. It is what it is. I have this on and I’m going to go forward and what happens, happens. But I know I feel really good right now. Like this velvet duster thing that I’m wearing right now, I put it on and I was like, I feel so good and so comfy in my skin. I have no clue how this podcast is going to go. However, it’s the fearlessness, it’s the building the faith in myself. I know however the podcast goes, I’m going to feel really comfy in myself while I’m doing it. so I wonder if maybe taking some of those, again, habits, not to overuse the word habit, but some of those habits that have been built, whether it’s the self talk and what you’re saying to yourself or literally putting on earrings, little things. I wonder if just bringing it back more to how you feel in the moment versus putting the pressure on it to make you feel a certain way in the future. Because it sounds like even through this sort of micro flash session that we’ve done, we’ve started to identify how you do want to feel in the future. And that’s great. So you have that destination. And now it’s about, okay, well, how am I going to feel now and then? Now and then. Now and then now. Instead of putting the pressure on the now to inform the later so much when you don’t know what’s going to happen, there will be things that are in your control, and then there will also be things that aren’t. I don’t know. I wonder if that would be useful because it’s a thing you already do. So just sort of changing or reconfiguring the reason why you do it, it’s.

Sarah: Like changing the narrative, right. Instead of thinking, putting this on for whatever meeting or whatever, it’s just putting it on because I want to. It doesn’t have to be for someone else.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. And it doesn’t even need to be to look a certain way to other people, because then it can be to.

Sarah: Feel a certain way by myself. Exactly. Going to fearless just because there’s a little something we say to our daughter, our six year old, Beatrice, whenever she’s scared, and she says, I’m scared. And we always say, fear is how you feel, but brave is how you act. So when you’re scared of something, that’s okay, that’s how we feel, but we act brave to go towards something. But that just kept flashing my head.

Julie Jancius: When you were.

Katie Horwitch: Saying, yeah, and I also love that that’s what you say to her, versus, like, all right, her name’s Beatrice. I love that name. So, you know, we’re going to feel the fear and do it, like, especially as a little kid. I mean, fear is not only a very human emotion, but we have developed fear and become so, attuned to our fear for very real reasons, like, to keep us safe. And so I love that that is what you say to her.

Sarah: And I wonder if I could take my own.

Julie Jancius: Advice.

Katie Horwitch: That’s so much easier said than done, though. I think that that’s what you say to her, but that might not necessarily be what you say to you, because we’re all different people. It’s sort of the idea of when people say, talk to yourself like you would talk to a best friend or treat others the way you want to be treated. It’s actually more about, like, okay, I want to treat others the way they want to be treated, not necessarily the way that I want to be treated. Or on the flip side, talk to yourself like you would talk to a best friend. That can be tough, because we have different relationships with different people. And if you’re thinking of your best friend, if you’re thinking of Julie. If I’m thinking of my best friend, whose apartment I’m recording from right now, we are very different people. And the way that I would talk to her during a tough time is. I, mean, it’s part of the reason I love our relationship so much is we are so similar in many ways, and we’re so different in so many ways. So if I were to talk to myself, like, I would literally talk to my best friend, I actually don’t think that that would work very well on myself. It’s not even that. I think it’s that I know. And it’s more about, again, not just treating other people the way that you want to be treated, but treating them the way that they want to be treated. Talk to yourself like you would want to be talked to by your best friend. So it’s a little bit of mental gymnastics here, but I think that you found that beautiful phrase for Beatrice. whether it is fearlessness is when the fear is less than the faith. So how can I have, like, it’s about having faith in myself or if it’s something else? I think that, especially as a parent, I’m not a parent myself. I have young nieces and nephews. I’m a very proud part of the Auntie Club. But I think that when these moments come up, not if. When these moments come up, where maybe you think, oh, gosh, well, I can say this to her, why can’t I say it to myself? Maybe even asking yourself that question for real and not rhetorically, could help you find something that works for you. Like, why can’t I say to myself that to myself, well, maybe brave actually isn’t a word that you feel a strong connection to. Maybe it’s something else. I think we ask ourselves these rhetorical questions, especially when we get into the negative self talk spirals, and there’s actually a lot of gold to be found in actually asking ourselves the questions for real.

Sarah: I love that.

Julie Jancius: This is amazing.

Katie Horwitch: Sarah, has this been helpful, I hope? No.

Sarah: It has. I think it’s been great. Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been very eye opening. And I love confidence is trust. And how beautiful would it be if we could trust. I guess I should speak for myself if I could trust myself to have myself.

Sarah: As much as I’m.

Julie Jancius: Like.

Sarah: I feel like I’m not enough of a friend, I’m not enough of whatever. I also do know that I am a pretty good friend, and I am a pretty good daughter, and I’m a pretty good aunt. I think I’m pretty good at it. And if I could take an ounce of the effort I put into my friendships outside of myself and put that into myself, that would be great. But then again, that just then triggers me into another spiral. Why am I not doing that?

Katie Horwitch: Totally. And like I said at the beginning, it’s not just this. That’s why I wrote a book on it. It’s not this sort of light switch, like, all right. All better now? I guess I’m good. It’s not only lifelong work, but we change so much as humans. And I think that when we were kids, so many times we’re asked what we want to be when we grow up and then we get to a certain age and we’re never asked that. And so there’s this idea and this sort of subtext really buried deep into that that is like, okay, you are now grown up. You’ve hit the thing you’ve done, Mark. Exactly. And so I think it’s about getting curious over and over and over and over. And even if there was one thing in this hour together that you’re, I’m going to think about that. Then I’m like, amazing. I’m so happy because it is just like those one things that build up over and over. Yes.

Sarah: No, this was wonderful and very helpful. So thank you. And thank you, Julie, for having me.

Julie Jancius: Thank you for being on. It makes me think of a couple of know spirit always says that our purpose isn’t the like every soul is not the same and what they want here for their life is not the same. And some people, I think that we can get too stuck in like, this is the right way and this is the wrong way. And I really loved Katie, how you kind of really brought us back to, but what’s the best way for you? Because that’s really what it comes down to. What’s the best way for Sarah to be personally living and what does she really want? And if that’s that ease and that confidence and that comfort, that’s perfect, that’s success for her and that’s so beautiful. And I’ve been seeing a lot of folks, too, recently. That spirit has just been bringing my way of people talking about how they were 50 or 55 or 60 before they really came into that for themselves. And I love that you guys brought it around to this point of we really do need to keep asking ourselves who do we want to be? Because it changes. Who do you want to be when you grow up? You can get to that point at.

Julie Jancius: Any point within your life.

Katie Horwitch: Yeah. And taking this goal of, I think that especially in sort of the space that we are in right now with this podcast, we can be asked these questions or be told these phrases, rather of stand by who you are, know who you are, love yourself. Those are really beautiful phrases, but they’re really hard to put into practice if you’re like, okay, well, know who I am. I don’t know who am I? What makes me me, what makes me tick in the micro moments like love myself. I don’t even know who myself is. I don’t even know what self is. And getting to, I think the commitment to being present and, sort of double clicking into those micro moments in your life is so essential for people who desire to do that work because it isn’t, like Sarah said, just a phrase of pretty words that you can plaster over negative ones. It’s not just a tweetable or, I don’t know, xable, whatever it’s called. Now, example of self love is the best. that’s. Yes. Cool. But what does that mean for me specifically? That invites a whole other host of questions. And so I would really encourage people if they start to go down that negative self talk loop when they feel like they should be a certain way or they should have these concepts when it comes to self esteem, sort of like, handled, so to speak, by now, I’d really encourage them to embrace that there is a whole ecosystem underneath to explore and, say, okay, we’ll get to that self love thing later. Let’s talk about what’s underneath that so that we can really embrace it.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Julie Jancius: I’m so glad that you went there because it went to a new depth, and I’m so glad that we got to peel back those layers and just reach that depth here today. Katie, you have this wonderful new book. It’s out by the time that this podcast is being released. It’s called Want yourself, which is fantastic. Tell everybody where they can find it and where they can find more of you.

Katie Horwitch: Yes. So want yourself. Shift your self talk and unearth the strength in who you were all along. Is available October 3, wherever books are sold. We’re talking Amazon, we’re talking Barnes and Noble, we’re talking target, we’re talking your indie bookstores, because we love indie bookstores. And definitely you can go to bookshop.org and you can order from your favorite indie bookstore. You can also find me on Instagram. I am at Katie Horowitz on Instagram and all over social media and if you liked this, I would encourage people to visit the platform that I started many years ago called want, and that, stands for women against negative talk. So they can find me, at women againstnegativetalk.com.

Julie Jancius: So beautiful. You’re such an amazing, resource and Earth angel to this world. Thank you for all that you do, and thank you for being with us.

Katie Horwitch: Today, both of you. Thank you so much for having us. Sarah, thank you so much for being a part of all of this with us. I’m so honored that this is what we got to do today.

Sarah: This is great. Thanks.

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