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On Trust, Happiness, and Protecting Your Treasures – with Dr. Henry Cloud

Guest Interview

Hello beautiful souls! Today, we’re going to be talking about the relationship of trust and happiness as Dr. Henry Cloud (psychologist, leadership expert, and author of Trust) joins me on the podcast to share his wealth of knowledge and experiences. We talk about the importance of creating and knowing your boundaries – and how doing so can help you take ownership of your own life. Listen in as we also talk more about happiness and how real happiness is much deeper and lasts much longer than we may think.

To learn more about Dr. Henry Cloud and his work:
DrCloud.com His book Trust and The Law of Happiness is available at all major book retailers


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Julie Jancius 01:49

Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening podcast. I’m your host and author Julie Jancius. And friends you are in for a treat if you’re listening today, we have Dr. Henry Cloud. And if you’re thinking to yourself, Julie, I know that name, where do I know it from? He is a New York Times bestselling author many times over, he has helped tens of millions of people around the world. In fact, my mom called me years ago and she goes Julie, stop what you’re doing. She goes you need to head over and buy this book called Necessary Ending. She said I read it. It is the most amazing book it has changed my life. And she said I know it’s going to change your your life. Dr. Henry Cloud has a new book coming out. It’s called Trust, Knowing when to give it when to withhold it, how to earn it and how to fix it when it gets broken. And friends, you and I both know how many empaths listen to the show. And trust is hard. So we are so excited to have you here. Dr. Cloud. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Henry Cloud 02:55

Well, it’s good to be here. I was thinking that that’s when you read the subtitle. Oh my gosh, we were all in all those categories, right?

Julie Jancius 03:06

Yes, yes. Well, and I think so much of your work resonates with me as an empath. I believe that there are people within this world who feel everything. And there are some people who are more maybe closed off and don’t feel as much. But to go back to your point, like with Necessary Endings, when my mom called about, about that. There’s somebody in our life going through a divorce at that time. And she really, I remember, I remember the story. She went to a grief group. And she said, You know, I don’t feel grief. She said, I feel relief, that that this is finally here. And she said is that because I pre processed the grief like, like I went through it beforehand. And it really made me stop to think that a lot of empaths maybe do pre process their feelings, months before making a big decision like that. So when the decision arises, it can be relief.

Dr. Henry Cloud 04:14

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, a phrase she said there a lot of empaths are pre process their feelings. Another way to say that is because the underbelly of that is they are in the relationship or in the situation, they will post process their negative feelings that would stand up and not put up with anything. So in other words, you know, that’s so in a good way. I mean, it’s a wonderful way to be in the world is to be to be turned in and sensitive to other people their needs, what they’re feeling that that’s an incredible quality we were we were having a dinner party last night and, and we’re talking about our dogs, we have a Doberman, who’s the love of our lives, and but we were talking about, she has the most amazing ability to know, who we’re running into on the street without knowing them. But every now and then there’ll be a person or a dog and 30 feet away, or the hair goes up on her back, there’s something wrong with this person. And so the impacts, the opening up, is processed very quickly. 

But the negative being able to express the negative feelings and the anger and the hurt and all of that, about the relationship. Because they keep trying to love too long in a certain way. That’s a little slower. And so then when it finally hits, I can’t take it anymore. And all that is done, then the early loving stuff, and all the attention destined so spoiled, a lot of times they do walk away and go, Gosh, I’m glad. So yeah, but if they could have, you know, one of the growth paths of, of empaths, or anybody on the other end of the spectrum, or all the different dimensions, you know, be human. 

If you’re familiar with the Myers Briggs, for example. So a lot of people say, Well, I’m just an ENFP, or I’m just this, I’m just that. And on the scales, if you take like, like thinking and feeling, you know, that’s one of the scales. And they’ll say, Well, I’m a thinker, or, you know, I’m a feeler, well, that’s like a, it’s like an x ray, like a snapshot. And people don’t use it, like Carl Jung actually designed the system behind it to be used, which is maturity is to integrate the disintegrated parts of you. So if somebody is all thinking, what are we trying to do we try to get around to you’re a human being that has some feeling somewhere, we just have to find them. Right? Yes. And I think it’s like, it’s like that with your friend. With the empaths, a lot of the growth path has to do with Okay, in your love, also be aware of when you’re getting hurt, and when something’s dangerous.

Julie Jancius 07:22

So you have other books, and I’m just gonna read some titles here, so that this makes sense to the listener, you have Necessary Endings, Boundaries, Boundaries for Marriage, Boundaries for Kids, Boundaries for Leaders, these are all different book titles, difficult conversations, the power of the other, The Law of Happiness, 10 Things You’ll Never Do, again, Integrity, your new book Trust. And when you’re talking about this, majority of the listeners are women ages like 25, to about 65, who listen to the podcast. And there are a lot of people talking about relationship troubles right now, I know that we went through COVID, three years ago, but I still feel like we’re feeling some of the remnants of that within relationships that, you know, my husband and I went through a lot years ago, but we caught it in time, just like not knowing how to communicate with one another, not knowing how to set boundaries, that we were able, like, we never lost the love. And we were able to come back to one another. But people go through all different types of things in relationships. How does one know where to begin with setting the boundaries? And when the relationship has run its course?

Dr. Henry Cloud 08:47

Well, hopefully, you know, we talked about boundaries. Hopefully, the relationship doesn’t necessarily have a course that it’s gonna run. And that is how we feel exactly the way he said it. The relationship just ran its course. Well, actually, what happened was, two people ran together. And that’s the path they found themselves on because they weren’t conscious enough maybe to end up down a different path. Now, that’s not always the case. Because bad people happen to good people. I mean, you can’t ultimately control another person. But what we do know about any relationship is that we can influence any relationship by our own behavior. And so you can change the path of a relationship by one person’s changing now may not change it into the ideal. The ideal buy, oh, no, but if, you know, if you were the really bad person and the nature of the relationship is they’re hurt you over and over and over again, you can Change the path by changing your phone number and moving to Australia, right, that changes the path. So, so boundaries are all about really is the construct of taking control of yourself. 

Boundaries, you know, if you think of a boundary, it’s a property line. So your, your house, for example, if you own or rent a home or an apartment or whatever it is, there’s a property line. And that’s the boundary. And that says where you end and someone else begins. So you got a neighbor, right? Well, the things that boundaries help us define is, I am a person, you are a person, and we’re, we’re separate, even though we’re connected. And the property line defines who gets to control what, that’s the thing about your house, your neighbor can’t come in, and and paint it chartreuse green, right? Unless you say, yes, right, and they got to ring the doorbell, you can’t just come in, you got to ring the doorbell, and you’ve got to open the door, check them out. And if you like them, and they brought you, you know, some cookies or something, you can invite them in. So boundaries are permeable. But the point is, we have control of them. So you go back to the relationship. And if people get into a relationship, and I mean, there’s 1000 different things that can happen. But a common one is, you know, you don’t didn’t have any couple that ever fell in love and walked down the aisle. And as you’re walking down the aisle said, I can’t wait to hate you and divorce you know, that wasn’t the path, right? Yeah. But what happened was, you know, once you go further into an attachment, you’re getting deeper into the heart, really, you’re getting deeper into networks of memories, you’re getting deeper into pathways of behavior, that they’ll come out with somebody. And so then certain things will get triggered, or certain patterns will interlock with each other that you hadn’t run into. And then the ways that we handle those can either open the door where they can continue to hurt you. Someone can continue to hurt you. Or we say that hurts in a way that hurts them. And so now we’re triggering each other. Right. And, what boundaries, among other things, enables us to do really, because you already sort of born with the ability to do this. A baby– look you have children? Right. Do you remember when they were born? The only two words they knew how to say? Yes and no. Yeah. I mean, and they didn’t have the words, but what does the baby do or die? So imagine, imagine seeing this, okay? If a baby, a baby, something pleasurable happens, their head starts to go up and down like this. And if something tastes bad, they turn their heads to the side and they go, you know, it’s like they’re going, No, they’re actually saying yes, no, it’s built in to the system. it’s built in something good and life giving and pleasurable, we’re supposed to open up that’s what the book Trust is about. Supposed to open up and allow that in. And if something’s toxic, we’re supposed to close the door. That’s the boundary and saying no. Well, a lot of times, we come into adulthood now. I mean, everybody but you know, you came into adulthood fully mature and

Julie Jancius 14:23

a bunch of baloney.

Dr. Henry Cloud 14:26

You will be surprised. Some people come into adulthood without well developed boundaries, because they’ve been abused or they’ve been controlled. They never were really allowed to say no to something that’s hurting them. Yeah, they learned that they’re an object of somebody else’s well being and they’re there.

Julie Jancius 14:48

I’m still working on boundaries.

Dr. Henry Cloud 14:51

We all are so. A lot of times it’s not until the relationship starts to hurt a little bit. That If we start to think about how do we develop these new patterns , that’s kind of how boundaries works in relationships. Yeah. 

And the great thing is, it’s not all about fences and, and keeping people from various boundaries have to do with taking ownership of your life. And one of the things we talk a lot about is that a human, you know, I’m a person of faith and in our refer to some of my favorite verses sometimes. And one of them is that, that, that Jesus said one time, he said, he said, Don’t cast your pearls before swine. They’ll trample– our don’t give what is holy to dogs, they’ll chew you up and spit you out. And you start thinking about the pearls of the human, or your treasures, you know, these are pearls are treasures. So what are the treasures that live inside the human breast? Well, our feelings, our attitudes, our behaviors, our choices, the things we love, our values, our desires, our talents, are thoughts, all of the things that reside inside of us. Those are treasures and the fences, the boundaries are to keep people from trampling on all the wonderful things in your heart, mind, and soul. But it’s not just playing defense, it’s also taking ownership and a lot of people that have ever been controlled and abused, and all that. They’re so worried about keeping this dysfunctional person, you know, either away or happier, or, you know, not hurting them. They’ve never even taken the time to look in their own house and own their own desires and dreams and values, and what do I want my life to look like? And when somebody starts building boundaries, against somebody coming in and stealing everything, you can also go into the attic, where a bunch of good stuff is stored that you’ve never owned, and say, Well, I never knew I had this talent, this desire, I’ll go back to school. But you never do that because somebody else is controlling your life. So boundaries are positive, as well as negative.

Julie Jancius 17:21

Yeah, I have a friend who’s a couple of friends actually, who are going through divorces right now. And I had a conversation with one last night. And I said, Well, who are you? You know, like, who are you? Outside of the marriage? Yeah, like, you haven’t had to think about that for almost 25 years. And I think it’s to your point of exactly what you were saying there. She has this attic full of passions, desires, and who she really is that she hasn’t tuned into for, for a while.

Dr. Henry Cloud 17:53

Everybody, everybody is born. Basically, the way I look at it, with two things, you know, we’re all different in so many ways. But every, every human has two things. One is you have a certain number of moments. And for some people it’s 100 years for other people is less, right? But we have a certain and I’m not gonna say amount of time because it’s hard to think about how we’re going to use a lifetime. All we can do in any moment is be in that moment. Right? And that’s gonna add up one day, but we know that I mean, all everything that science and metaphysics and all of it is it, it’s all about the power of the present and the now, right so. So we have back to Faith, you know, so Jesus, it’s all about today, don’t worry about tomorrow, you’re not in tomorrow, you can’t do anything about it anyway, but what you do is what you can do today that might affect tomorrow, but it’s all about today. So we have a certain number of moments a B, you have the power of your heart, mind, soul to invest in each moment. So a life gets built by whatever you know, an investment gets a return. So if we’re investing just like you said about about your friend, and she’s getting in touch with what is her heart want and she puts her mind to work on, on what capacity that’s going to take her talents or resources or and she she lives that out with all of her passion and her strength and her soul and all of that. And she’s investing that for the first time and she does a little bit of that every day, well, who knows? In a handful of years, she might be a heart surgeon. That’s how it happens.

Julie Jancius 20:07

Yeah. Consistency.

Dr. Henry Cloud 20:09

Yeah, it comes from the investment of who we are in each moment. And you’re going to earn a lot of people aren’t back to boundaries in a relationship where they’re being controlled, for example, they’re not able to or are choosing not to or for risks or other payoffs or whatever. They’re not investing in self protection at that moment. And so what boundaries do is trying to help people? We’re in control of that. Yeah, we are really are in control of that. That’s human freedom.

Julie Jancius 20:46

It helps give like your boundaries almost right and owner’s manual for other people to learn how to treat you.

Dr. Henry Cloud 20:54

That sounds pretty good. I love the word owners.

Julie Jancius 20:57

That’s um, that’s something that I just thought of, like, as I was reading your books, though, like that is truly something as I was reading your Boundaries books, I really felt like it was the owner’s manual.

Dr. Henry Cloud 21:10

Well, yeah, pretty good.

Julie Jancius 21:12

That’s awesome. Let’s go over to trust your new book. 

Dr. Henry Cloud 21:17

Mine is easy reads. Some people’s owner’s manual for their lives. It’s like a Bentley or Tessa Mine’s kind of like, you know, a little Volkswagen. It’s kind of simple.

Julie Jancius 21:32 

Oh, I love that. When it comes to trust, I am a very highly sensitive person. Like uh, I don’t I try not to take things personally. But sometimes things just do. Right and being a very highly attuned Empath as well. I feel like I wear my heart on my sleeve. I tell everybody everything to your saying before about Jesus saying don’t put the pearls in front of the swan. I feel like I I give of myself

Dr. Henry Cloud 22:08

all the time. Why did you say Swan and swine? Yeah, pig. The pig.. Yes. This was actually– you know, swans. Swans can be brutal. I learned that only golf for a long time. Don’t Don’t get close. Yeah.

Julie Jancius 22:30

Yeah, I was wondering about that one. I hadn’t heard that one before. I’m glad I heard you’re wrong on that. 

When it comes to trust, for those of us who have just been hurt so many times before? Where do you start to develop that trust? And how do you know? Here’s the other thing that happens, I’m just going to break it down. Like I want to be somebody’s best friend right away, right? And maybe like, we give too much too fast in a relationship where other people are slower, and let the relationship build over a couple of years. I’m like, Let’s go you know, like hanging out with the person all the time. You’re my new bestie. Why are we different like that? And do we need to learn how to kind of slow our roll? And is it better for relationships, and friendships to start more slowly?

Dr. Henry Cloud 23:26

Well, let me ask you a couple of questions. Yeah. Okay. In fact, I should just give you a homework assignment. Yeah. Go go. I wish I knew the names um, but there’s there’s a handful of them out there because I saw one or two these shows on Netflix or, or, you know, one of the streaming services about these really bad guys that come and trick a woman into how wonderful they are in their how wealthy they are. And you’re gonna fly them all over the world. And they have this you know, incredible weekend and then they disappeared because they had banking to do in Switzerland. And but then you get a text. Oh, my gosh, my I left something something I don’t have any credit cards. Can you wire me? Yes. Yes. Unbelievable. And, and, and the women are so trusting because, well, he treated me so well. And he’s so wonderful and, and then ultimately, they’re bankrupt. 

It happened to a relative of mine, actually. A cousin she was in her 60s When this happened. Early 60s. pretty wealthy woman, very smart woman. And her husband died. And she had a money manager from one of the reputable banks, Wall Street banks, one of the big firms who she So now, after they started dating and he was so wonderful, and then they were going to get married, she was slowly turning over power of attorney to him. And she ended up bankrupt and she had millions and gazillions ended up bankrupt, nothing she could do about it and went to work as a receptionist, probably in her late 60s, and had to work the rest of her life. Because of what you’re saying that she from day one, let’s go we’re besties. Right? And it is possible to go to Vegas and put everything on red and win.

Julie Jancius 25:46

It’s also possible to lose everything.

Dr. Henry Cloud 25:49

It is, it is. So so what I did in the book, Trust was just in part for people like you, who you this wonderful heart, so much love. Here’s the problem. If you are a loving and responsible person, you very may well have a big problem. And the problem is you out of your love in the way that you respond to people. You assume everybody’s like you.

Julie Jancius 26:23

I do 100%

Dr. Henry Cloud 26:25

Yeah. Well, newsflash, not everybody is like you. Most people can put on a uniform that looks like you for a minute, or for a month, or for however long it takes to seduce someone into trusting them. But some people are not out not even out to hurt you. But they’re not as loving and responsible as you are. And when they do not take responsibility for something or do something insensitive, which we all do, and they do hurt you. Okay. You assume? Well, they’re likely if I hurt somebody’s feelings, they tell me and I go, I’m so sorry. I didn’t mean to do that. I won’t do that. You go and you adapt. Well, they hurt you. And you say there. And what happens? I mean, well, that’s because you, it was because, and now they’re gaslighting, they’re minimizing their use of denial and all the classic, you know, kind of narcissistic defenses. Or they’re splitting you off and all bad and going off and telling the rest of world how evil you are. And they started out so nice, but they’re not as responsible in their love, as you are. 

And so you can’t just make the assumption that everybody is like you and loving people, especially empaths, as you’re referring to them. Do this all the time. Why? Because that is a function of empathy. Yeah. Okay. But you’re not only empathy, yeah. There’s a warrior in there to that’s gotta be called the Battle sometimes when she’s needed. And so and not only is there a warrior, but great example. Let’s pretend you’re a bank. Okay, because you’re talking about how fast she trusts me. That was the question. Let’s pretend you’re a bank, somebody walks in. Okay. There’s a few possibilities. They can be a bank robber. That happens. They can be a person with a lot of assets that they want to deposit in your bank. And you guys have a mutually satisfying relationship for decades. They’re going to bring something to the party, you’re going to bring something to the party, you provide things they, they provide assets, you provide services, and you get paid for those, they get to use your money, they go buy new skyscrapers, and everybody is happy. They can be somebody that is really struggling right now and needs money and comes in and sits down and talks to your loan officer. And you decide, yeah, we really empathically we really want to help you. And here’s how much we can lend. You can’t lend you more than that. We lend this much. And here’s what you have to do. You got to put up your little brother as collateral. He’s got to mow my grass for six years, right? Or a car or something you’re giving to them but it’s limited To use, you don’t want to have too much exposure, because they do have some issues. And you’re also requiring something from them, but they help you, as a third person that could walk in. A fourth person they could walk in, is somebody who wants a loan, and you look at everything, they’re actively smoking crack, they, you know, are just got fired from a third job because they went off on the boss, they, you know, have this pattern of bankruptcies. And you’re just, you know, after examining this, I’m sorry, but we can’t help. 

All right, each one of those takes time before you invest in them. The bank robber doesn’t take much time. And the answer is no. But the bank robber didn’t walk in your hand and the money, right, you’re waiting until it’s an appropriate investment, based on what you know. And so what the Trust book does, is I got deep into the research of the functions of how humans trust, and what breaks trust and what builds it and how it’s repaired. And all that. And what what I tried to do is, there are factors, we all have a go, but inside, like you’re saying an empath hits the Go button really quickly. But sometimes the Go button, you know, you got an accelerator on your car, you don’t just get your car and slam it to the floor in the driveway. Right, you make sure you’re on the right road. There’s some lanes, you want to check what’s coming in the other direction, noise that this thing might blow up. So there are some factors, that we need a dashboard for trust. I want to hit the gas, I want to engage with this person I want to trust I want to go deeper, they have so much to offer. It could be so great. But I better check the oil. I better look at the temperature of the engine. I better look at how much fuel do we have? And that’s what the book does. It gives you some some ways to look at no matter what I feel. I’m better make sure that certain things are true before I give them my heart or my soul or my body or my wallet or whatever it is. So that’s what the book does. And it also it teaches you when I wrote the subtitle for a reason, you know when to give it because we have to trust it’s important to trust. You’ll never have a life that’s very scalable. Without trust. 

I mean, I was in our airplane. And this guy says What are you doing? I’m doing some research on trust. He goes, Wow, I don’t trust anyone. So I learned a long time ago. You can’t trust me. I only trust myself. Yes. You know, I’m a psychologist. And you’re crazy. Yeah. He goes, What do you mean? I said, You’re crazy. Don’t tell me you don’t trust anybody. Look out the window. You’re 43,000 feet. You didn’t get yourself up here.

Julie Jancius 33:28

Your trusting in the pilot.

Dr. Henry Cloud 33:29

Thank you. Not only the pilots, then you kind of can see how do you know the guy that put fuel on the plane didn’t put chocolate milk in there. You trusted him. You trusted the cars to stay on the other line. Don’t tell you don’t trust anybody. If you didn’t trust him by you wouldn’t be able to eat lunch. You think the food has ecoli. And you trusted somebody to inspect? I said But my hunch is you’ve been heard in some significant relationships. And there’s some ways in the personal arena, that in my language, your trust muscle is broken. And because of that, and I’d love to hear your story. Your life is limited in some ways. And I mean, somebody’s going to build a business. It’s only going to become big if you can hire somebody to go do something so you can do something else. Yeah. That’s how you scale any is how anything gets bigger is because we trust so we have to trust. But we have to know how to trust and when to trust and when not to give it and then the other side of the equation. People are going to invest in you and they trust you. Now why did people tune in to your podcast?

Julie Jancius 34:45

Probably consistency. There’s over 450 episodes. We have like a new podcast episode every Monday every Thursday. I don’t take a break with like seasons. I think that for as much I am spiritual, and I live my life based on my intuition and the other side and my faith. I’m very rational. And I think the word is probably pragmatic and down to earth and grounded with how I look at things, too. And so I think I bring a balanced approach,

Dr. Henry Cloud 35:18

You just outlined the book, right. So why do people trust? Well, because they can depend on getting certain things from you, that meets a need that they have. And, and you mentioned several factors in there, you know, what I’m used to was, was consistency. Well, I divide the book in five, five different components that have to be present for surprise. And the last one is something called track record. And basically, our minds builds maps, right? So we have a mental map that we’re building in a relationship. Okay, in. In the last however long we’ve been together here, your mind is constructing a map of what it’s like to interview me, right? My mind is constructing a map of what it’s like to be interviewed by you. Now, I’m going to operate on the map that I have now, rolling out a little map so far, but if we hung up now, and you called me next week, and say, you know, I was looking at one of your other books, I’d really like to come back on and let’s talk about Okay, so what my mind is going to do is answer the question, what happened the last time? And it’s gonna come up with she was awesome. I love talking to her. You kidding? Yeah. Let’s go do it. Right. But I can tell you, I’ve done a few of these. It. We’re launching a book right now. Right? I’ve done a few of these this week. And if they call back, we go. Yeah, sorry. I don’t think it’s exactly a good fit. Because we’re learning to trust or not trust based on what happened last time. Now, it’s amazing how many people get hurt or don’t get a good response? Or they said the other and out of the goodness of their heart that just go back? And because the person says I’m sorry, well, you know, what did Forrest Gump site was? Sorry, is this stupid? Is it what it was

Julie Jancius 37:46

Stupid is as stupid does.

Dr. Henry Cloud 37:49

Yeah. Well, sorry is as sorry does. Right? Yeah. And sorry, has to do with the past, but trust always has to in the future. Sorry, and forgiveness is free. And we should give it if you’re not a forgiver. You are shortening your life and ruining your life. But that has to do his stuff. Sorry, happened. We’re talking about trust next week. So because I’m sorry, that does because trust sorry, is free Trust is earned? It’s what I’m saying? They haven’t earned another interview.

Julie Jancius 38:21

Yes. So what you’re saying to to everybody is you want to be a forgiver. But that forgiveness, we still need those strong boundaries, because there’s so many people who there’s so many empaths who really get attracted to narcissistic friends or partners. And it’s because that Empath really doesn’t have as much boundaries, I would say, probably as the typical individual. And the narcissist is on the opposite spectrum from that, and they know that they can just dominate and rule that person because of the lack of boundaries,

Dr. Henry Cloud 39:01

That’s right? You can invade, invade their property. And they own other people’s feelings. And if you go back to the trust model, you know, number one, if you this book is almost like a and a vaccine against narcissists. Really, it really is just right out of the package, because the very first necessary component for trust is somebody who understands you and your needs. We trust someone and in God wired into us, physiologically, neurologically, biologically neuro biologically and psychologically. Responses to somebody understanding us that’s what empathy is. You A and you’re wired. Everybody’s heard the term mirror neurons. So, so much research on when a human feels mirrored, like some I’m with you, I’m getting you and you see their expressions that show I understand. And all that. Your whole being is just opening up. That’s what causes a baby to suck. And to take in love and to take in the connection because the mother is mirroring. It’s okay and, and then the happiness in there and you and they learn their expressions and they learn who they are. You’re only going to trust somebody if you feel like they understand what hurts you. They understand what you’re afraid of they understand, you know, what makes you happy. Okay, so let’s go back to the vaccine for narcissists. What happens when you tell a narcissist that something doesn’t feel good? Ah, what are they? Exactly?

Julie Jancius 41:07

I did like that RR sound they they jump out at you, they they attack you and they want to like beat you down.

Dr. Henry Cloud 41:15

That’s right. They gaslight you they deny it, they minimize the excuse. they project it onto you they shoot the messenger. But what you know, trust me, what do you say? You get attacked? Well, you just flunked the number one factor of the five of when to trust somebody. So somebody does it. If they can’t say, oh, my gosh, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt you. Tell me. Tell me what I did tell me. See, now they’re trying to get curious about because I certainly don’t want to do that. Or if there’s a misunderstanding wasn’t what I was trying to do. But their first attempt is to get out of their yard, walk over to your house and find out why is there smoke coming out of the kitchen? Not, you know, throw more bombs over there that causes smoke to begin with. And so, if you think about the trust model in this book, it actually, I’ve never thought of that. In those terms. It’s kind of a vaccine against narcissists. 

Julie Jancius 42:18

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Henry Cloud 42:21

And even if you go to the second one, what’s the second quality in the model? When some I can understand you. But what’s my motive? A predator? Even a malignant narcissist? Will, you know, happens romantically all the time. And he’ll, he’ll, he’ll meet a woman, and just mirror her and understand and listen, and you’re so amazing. And it’s all you know, so, so much empathy. I can’t believe your ex did that to you. Especially about, you know, when you get into the talking about the ex or so. You’re so wonderful. How can anybody ever treat you like this? And they go home? Say I found the one. Yeah. Because they feel understood. But the second component is, What’s the motive? Because what’s going to happen with a narcissist is you’re gonna get into a relationship, where it’s all about them. Their agenda is the agenda for the relationship. It’s all about them and their needs and what they want. It’s not also about what you need, or what you want. And in a good relationship, somebody is trustworthy, when they look out not only for their own needs, but they really have your back. And they’re thinking about what you need. narcissistic people don’t do that. They use you to meet their needs. And so if you have these kind of like things floating through your head, you end up asking the question, Why? Why don’t we always end up going? Where he wants to go? Why we always end up around his friends, not mine. Yeah. Why don’t you want to meet my family? You know, on and on, and on and on. So it’s good. The reason I wrote the book was it’s good to have a dashboard to begin to check houses measured up. But not only that, for a couple to use as a check up. I mean, what a great thing to sit down every now and then and say, How am I doing it? Understanding what you’re needing in our relationship, right? How am I doing in making you feel like I’m looking out for you and what you want and just go down the list. That would help right?

Julie Jancius 45:01

For sure. 

Dr. Henry Cloud 45:03

One of the things we used to do with the girls, two daughters I’m the one trying to drive this right. And they’re always rolling around, Dad, another life lesson. Yeah. But But we would do when it got time to talk, we usually do it on Sunday night. Okay, okay, guys, family meeting time, it’s time to have a family. So that meant called the order, there’s certain little things we’re going to do. But one of them was go around the table. And, and each person would have to ask. Okay, so what’s it like to be on the other end of me this week?

Julie Jancius 45:49

Wow, that is powerful. Say that again?

Dr. Henry Cloud 45:53

What was it like to be on the other end of me this week? Wow. And so you’re around? And each person would say, Well, you know what, when you did this, or that, that was so cool. That helped us so much. We enjoy that so much. And but when you did this, that’s not so cool. Can you do that anymore? But it’s the basic thing, you’re sitting down and trying to understand the other side? And how it feels like to be on the other side of me in a relationship? Because that’s very, very important. That’s the first element of trust. 

Julie Jancius 46:30

Do you have some ground rules with that with the family so that it doesn’t become shaming? Or does a family need to know what shame is? And how not to go into the shame take when doing that and ask him that question?

Dr. Henry Cloud 46:42

Yeah, I think that’s, that’s part of good. Good training. Right. So that’s a great point. Because then you can end up the next Sunday night, what to do this week that you didn’t like, well, last week, when you told me Wait, I didn’t do that you did it in such a sucky way. We don’t do that anymore. 

So one of the things that, you know, especially with kids what what you’re doing with a kid, is the way I always looked at it is, this has nothing to do with today. This always has to do with tomorrow. You know, parenting is your, you’re building adults is what you’re doing, you know, apparently is always about thinking about, am I raising a kid that somebody is going to be around one day? And so, to your point, you know, the ground rules are when your talents, my Oh, it felt like to be on the other interview? That’s where you start to teach, say, if they say, Well, you were so me. So women know, there’s a different way to say that. When you did this, I felt this. I would like for you to do this instead. And so the you know, that’s a boundary violation that you You make me so instead of when you did this, it makes me not feel close to you. Well, if you learn to express feelings in a, I want to be close to you. But when you do that, I find myself pulling away from you. That’s a loss for the other person. Yeah. Which may motivate them to not do that. As opposed to shame me. Like, here’s

Julie Jancius 48:34

One of those that comes up often in my household from my husband point of view, because he’s the cleaner he would sweep and mop every single night if I let him.

Dr. Henry Cloud 48:44

Okay. You better not say that. Because every woman in the world is gonna come steal this guy.

Julie Jancius 48:49

I just told that to a friend the other day, I was like, if I ever passed away all of the casserole, ladies, we’ll all be over here. He’s the best man in the entire world. That’s okay, I’ll put that out there. He deserves that credit. He’s the best. But he’ll say, you know, to my daughter, you when you I asked you to put away the dishes and you don’t put it away. It makes me feel overwhelmed and anxious because I want to spend time with you guys at night. But I can’t spend time with you until everything’s clean and put away.

Dr. Henry Cloud 49:24

A lot better than say You’re so irresponsible. You little baby. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Jancius 49:30

Amazing. Do you have time for one more quick question.

Dr. Henry Cloud 49:33

Yeah, but I’ve got I’ve also got got one that I would listen to him if he wants to use tell me that. You know how I asked you to, to, you know your stuff that you left in the den or the kitchen you know, your jacket and your skateboard and your iPhone or whatever the age appropriate remember I asked you to go put that stuff out. Well You know, we have something called common areas. Now you have your room. But common areas are where we use those in common. So the kitchen and then for example, those are everybody gets to use those spaces and your own toys and stuff. They can’t, if you leave them in the common area after a certain time, then here’s what happens. I’m gonna teach you a new word is called impounding. So if you like, for example, if I leave my car, in the parking lot past eight it gets impounded, they take and then I’ve got to buy it. So we’re gonna have a new rule. And we’re going to have, you know, at eight o’clock, if everybody stopped isn’t out of the Dan, now the kitchen in the urine, is gonna get impounded in you’re gonna have to buy it back.

Julie Jancius 50:55

Oh, I think a lot of Mama’s out there, but like that one.

Dr. Henry Cloud 51:01

wouldn’t believe how fast that place gets cleaned.

Julie Jancius 51:03

That is a boundary that works. I’ll give you another one.

Dr. Henry Cloud 51:08

When my girls started, you know, the you you you daddy, she took my daddy, she you know, and they’re, they run to me, you got to over my turn. They’re pointing fingers, right. At some point, I said, Okay, girls, what you’ve done here is you’ve got what’s called a dispute, you have an argument. Okay. And you brought that to daddy court? You’re asking me to be the judge. Right? And I will be and anytime you guys have a problem. If you want to bring it to daddy court, I will decide who’s right. But there’s court fees. Okay. And I’m expensive as a judge. So here’s the way this works. If you bring me an argument or something and you want me to decide she’s bad, or it’s your fault, or whatever, I will do it. But loser pays the court fees.

Julie Jancius 52:10

Oh, that teaching some big lessons. 

Dr. Henry Cloud 52:15

Yeah, you come to me and tell me she did this? And that’s why. And I decide, no, that’s not right, then you’re gonna pay the court fees and vice versa. So tell me what you’re arguing. And so what do you mean court fees? I go, I don’t know. Depends on how long it takes. I mean, maybe your bike could be your favorite tennis shoes. I don’t know. Every trousers got a different price. They literally looked at each other, and looked back and said, That’s okay. And they ran

Julie Jancius 52:50

We’ll figure it out, dad. That’s amazing. I love those examples. Those are great.

Dr. Henry Cloud 53:01

In adulthood, and rolling it back. It’s not about getting your homework in time. It’s about turning in your taxes on April 15. When you’re 37. That’s what it’s about. Sure.

Julie Jancius 53:11

Yeah. You have to tell me before we go, what is The Law of Happiness?

Dr. Henry Cloud 53:17

That’s a book I wrote. Basically, here’s how it happened. You know, the book The Secret. So the publisher of The Secret called me because I’d written in addition, my business books, and in psychology books, I’ve written a number of faith books. And the publisher called me and said, you know, we would like to make a version of The Secret for the Judeo Christian faith audience. And and they said, so I think the way she put it was a lot of the, you know, the principles come from the Bible and or something I can’t remember exactly. So I hadn’t read it, but I’ll be glad to go read it because they wanted me to write that version, that book. And so I went read it. I said, well, there are some principles in here. I think that that you find that are universal, I said, there are some differences. Like when I say, Well, for one, the Bible doesn’t think we are God, thank God. There is a person that is separate from us, that is a person that we’re not God inside an impersonal force. Just attraction in the unit, there is a person that’s where we get personhood, is because we’re made in the image of God. And so that’s why it’s not just the force there literally is a person. 

But here’s what I would like to do. I would like to write what I think is The Secret from my faith perspective. And so I wrote that book is called The Secret Things of God. And then, you know, people liked it. And so they call back and said, Well, this, you know, human thriving genre. We really liked it. And the way you did it, what would you like to write about next in that, in that space? And I say, Well, this would have been the time about the time where it didn’t just become what came to be known as positive psychology, it’s a whole field Now, this would have been, you know, 10 or 12 years ago, and books still out there. But when this happened, and because I work a lot in the area of high performers, and, you know, CEOs and athletes, and, you know, business performers, and human thriving because, you know, programs for their entire company, so employees thrive and flourish, that kind of stuff. So deep into the research of what’s called positive psychology, the president APA, say, we’ve been studying dysfunction for 100 years, and we know why people get depressed and how to cure them. And we know how to cure addictions and anxiety and all this, but nobody’s ever studied, why are people happy? What makes them happy? And so that’s kind of a long answer. 

Julie Jancius 56:25

This is like, wildly Fascinating.

Dr. Henry Cloud  56:28

Well, so what I did was, and I had spent so many years deep in that research, and the the neurological research and the brain science and the physiological research and anatomy and endocrine systems and psychological dynamics. And that’s kind of where I live. And I thought, you know, what I’d like to do is, I would like to write a book, because they asked me to enter, you know, integrated with our faith. And because that’s the audience that we’re trying to write to people are interested in faith and spirituality and stuff like that. And so I said, I would like to write a book on what causes human thriving, this empirically based based on actual, the actual research, which by this, I mean, so much research on this. And so, what I did was to put my arms around it, I went back and studied the entire field of human thriving and did a factor analysis, and looked at the factor analyses that had been done. Because we were talking about a million things, but really, they’re kind of like, a dozen things that are called 100,000 things. But really, when you, you’re really talking about this, and this, and this and this. And so, when I did that, and I looked at those factors, it felt like I was reading the scriptures. Because the actual research shows that and this is done around the world for decades, that only about 10% of anybody’s happiness has anything to do with anything circumstantial. And people always saying, well, I’ll be happy if I got that job, or I’d be happy if I lived in that house. Or if I had that car per head that you know, whatever. And what happens is, when you get it, this thing you’ve been dying for, when you get it, your happiness, takes a bump and does go up about 10% and comes back down after a little bit of time, the new car smell wears off a little bit and you return to a set point, like a thermostat of how happy you are as a person apart from that event. 

So what’s that 90% composed? Well, some of it, some of it is biological and temperament. You know, you look at, you can look at babies go into nursery and the nursery right at the hospital. And the one I was like, Oh, they just love the world, and they’re happy and the next one is angry. They’re gonna become lawyers, right? They are up for a fight all the time. But some of it’s kind of constitutional wiring, and there’s, there’s things we can do to affect that as well. But the other big chunk is a set of life practices that around the world, richer, poor, healthy, unhealthy, single, married, whatever. People that are like this are the happy people. And when I went and studied it, when I said it was like reading the scriptures. It was about the level of love they have in their life. It’s about the level of purpose they have in their life. It’s about how much forgiveness they have in their life. It’s about how much self control they have feeling of autonomy and freedom and not being controlled by other people. It’s about the quality of their thinking patterns, and on and on and on. And so that’s what the law of happiness is about, is it there is– Moses said he gave us these laws and regulations so that we might always prosper. That’s what Deuteronomy says. That in that word means to thrive. That in whatever circumstance you’re in, that you’re going to thrive. And so that’s what the books.

Julie Jancius 1:00:52

Oh, I love that. That’s my next read. Yes, Dr. Cloud, thank you so much for being here. And just your wealth of expertise. All of your books are just immensely helpful. I’ve loved reading them. They’re very easy to read, like and I love all the tips and tricks and stories that you bring in. When it comes to finding you and your work and the book Trust. Where should they go to find that?

Dr. Henry Cloud 1:01:17

Well, to find the book, obviously, wherever books are sold, but if you go to DrCloud.com/trust and then on that website, you can find out about everything. If you’re the homepage, there’s something called Boundaries.me, which is a platform I have that has over 100 courses. Think of Netflix how you have different genres mystery, suspense action. Well, this is a platform of building you got relationships, codependency, addictions, reaching goals, marriage, divorce, recovery, over 100 courses on boundaries.me

Julie Jancius 1:02:00

Boundaries.me. Perfect. Thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Henry Cloud  1:02:05

It’s really, really fun. We’ll do it again, sometime.

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