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In this soul-deep conversation, my dear friend Elise Loehnen returns to unpack profound truths from her books True and False Magic (with Phil Stutz) and Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness. We explore why creativity is the ultimate antidote to ‘evil’, how to recognize your sabotaging ‘Part X’, and the liberating difference between Universe One (ruled by numbers/money) and Universe Two (ruled by pure creation). Elise shares practical tools like the ‘Science of Reality’ to combat anxiety and why claiming your wholeness matters more than performing ‘goodness’. If you’ve ever felt stuck in doubt or creative resistance, this episode is your invitation back to your life force.

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW

00:00 Angel Reiki School Promotion (Certification Details)

03:34 Episode Introduction & Welcoming Elise Loehnen

04:03 Elise’s Reading Habits & Book Projects

05:45 Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness (Workbook Explanation)

06:36 True and False Magic with Phil Stutz (Book Insights)

08:18 Universe One vs. Universe Two Defined

11:01 Part X: The Inner Saboteur Revealed

14:25 Science of Reality Tool for Anxiety

17:44 Women’s Retreat Promotion (October Event)

20:41 Creative Struggles: Marketing vs. Authenticity

23:27 Self-Sabotage & Upper Limit Problem

40:41 Life Force Energy & Daily Creative Practices

46:00 Where to Find Elise’s Work (Closing Resources)

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TRANSCRIPT:

Julie Jancis [00:00:00]:
Friends, before we dive in, I want to extend an invitation into something sacred that could be part of your unfolding. I’m hosting three Angel Reiki schools upcoming in person. September 19, November 7, January 23. Those are all the dates when they start. When you join, you don’t just receive one certification. You’re initiated into three in the Angel Reiki School. Mediumship, Energy Healing and becoming an angel messenger yourself. This is a one stop sanctuary where all of your spiritual gifts are activated and grown together.

Julie Jancis [00:00:39]:
Your unique gifts People are called to this program for so many reasons. Some are searching for a second career that is deeply fulfilling. One where they can witness lives transformed through the creative soul soul led work that they’re putting out into the world. One that starts with the Angel Reiki School. Others feel the longing to create an income that supports the life they’ve always dreamed of. More time. Freedom. The ability to take family vacations.

Julie Jancis [00:01:11]:
To be there walking their children to school. And be there when they get home from school to make the memories that matter most in this life. I often remind my students to say out loud, I am a high six figure angel medium. Time and time again they come back to share how claiming that vision and going through the Angel Reiki School has opened new doors to financial abundance, radiant joy and the freedom to live life on their terms. Yes, it does take devotion to build your own business, but the Angel Reiki School is where you begin. You might not yet understand why your soul is being pulled here, but once you step in, I promise you’ll feel it. The remembering, the recognition, the sense of coming home. And because the Angel Reiki School weekends are so intimate, so wonderful.

Julie Jancis [00:02:07]:
Alumni love coming back that you don’t have to, but they love the energy so incredibly much they asked to come back. So we did include an alumni option where you can. But because the Angel Reiki School weekends are so intimate, half of our in person dates sell out. So if you feel that stirring in your heart, trust it. Save your space. Now I keep our our groups small on purpose so that I get to know every single one of you well and join us for one of the upcoming Angel Reiki School weekends. Remember, that’s in September, November or January. All of them start on a Friday evening at PM and all of them end by Sunday somewhere in between 12 to 2.

Julie Jancis [00:02:57]:
You can register@theangelmedium.com getcertified. Step into the Angel Reiki School today and begin to embody your spiritual gifts to the fullest expression. Everyone who joins the Angel Reiki School gets Access to both the online and in person school. Join today theangel medium.com now here’s today’s episode. Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening podcast. I’m your host and author, Julie Jancis. And friends, we’ve got back on the show today a guest that I know that you are just gonna love.

Julie Jancis [00:03:34]:
Elise, I think of you sometimes, like, as a big sister. I know that I don’t know you that well, but I. Every time that your image pops up on anywhere, you know, podcast or over on Instagram, it just brings so much sunshine into my day. And thank you. Y. Elise, I look up to you so much too, because you love books. Everybody here, if you love books. Oh, my gosh.

Julie Jancis [00:03:59]:
If you’re not following Elise over on Instagram, what’s your Instagram handle over there?

Elise Loehnen [00:04:03]:
It’s just at Eliseloon. But yes, I do. I read a lot and I share what I learn, you know.

Julie Jancis [00:04:09]:
How many books a week do you read?

Elise Loehnen [00:04:11]:
Oh, it depends. I don’t. Some. I’ve been in like a. A dry spell lately. I’m. I’m working on my next book and I’m sort of in this. I’m not taking in so much information right now.

Elise Loehnen [00:04:25]:
So I. And I’m reading a really hard book, which is slow going, but some weeks I can read two or three books a week, and then I go through. Through droughts. I’m a little bit in my creative life, like, that there’s like nothing happening or I am in a full marathon length sprint where I’m like, how am I doing all of this stuff? I don’t know.

Julie Jancis [00:04:45]:
Oh, my gosh. Yes. So for those of you who maybe aren’t familiar with Elise, she’s got books On Our Best Behavior. This year you came out with True and False Magic with Phil Stutz. If people are like, I know I’ve heard that name before. Where have I heard Phil’s name? He did the documentary with Jonah Hill on Netflix that you probably saw in maybe 22 or 23. And this book that you guys came out with has really been, like, compared to the Four Agreements. It has.

Elise Loehnen [00:05:18]:
Oh, my God. Amazing.

Julie Jancis [00:05:21]:
Yes. Which, you know, just. Are just such incredible books. And I can’t wait to just dive into that because there’s so much in there spiritually that I know that this audience is just going to resonate with. But you also have a new book coming out, choosing Wholeness Over Goodness, which is like a complimentary workbook that goes with On Our Best Behavior. Tell us about that.

Elise Loehnen [00:05:45]:
Yeah. But I don’t know how to do anything casually, Julie. So. So it is. Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness is a workbook. Yes. It’s got the heft of a book, although there’s a lot of work for people to do in it. But when my editor asked me to do it, I think she was expecting, you know, essentially a glorified journal with some good question prompts.

Elise Loehnen [00:06:06]:
And then it’s this. Com. It’s this whole process for examining the stories that you have that are driving your personality. And. And it’s structured around the same ideas in On Our Best Behavior, which is about how women are conditioned to perform our goodness in the world, to be a good mother and all of everything that’s involved in that and a good friend. And, you know, I don’t need any attention or affirmation or praise. I’m just over here serving other people’s needs, and I don’t want anything, you know, all the. All the things that we know.

Elise Loehnen [00:06:35]:
So Choosing Wholeness is a compliment and an expansion. It’s sort of taking that book and saying, okay, how do you actually start to. Besides, I think Honor Best Behavior does a good job of making some of that more conscious and overt of like, oh, I see what I’ve subscribed to culturally about these ideas about being this selfless mother and so on and so forth, who doesn’t talk about money and never gets mad and so on. And we know these scripts. But that Choosing Wholeness is about what to do once you recognize that that is, in fact happening in your life, as it is in all of our lives. So that’s Choosing Wholeness, and that’s coming up. That’s fun and really good work to do with your friends, I have to say, because you can really help each other see what you’re up to, you know, and what those stories are. And to give you an example, when I’m talking about a story, I came to understand that one of my big stories is I’m the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all.

Elise Loehnen [00:07:36]:
I bet some others can relate to that story.

Julie Jancis [00:07:38]:
Oh, yeah, for sure.

Elise Loehnen [00:07:41]:
Another one of my stories is. And this. That belongs in this chapter on Sloth, because it’s set according to the seven deadly sins. Then one of my money stories, as someone who works for myself now, is if I accept money from someone, then they own me. That’s a big story for me. I have so many stories. But, yeah, yeah, so that’s. That’s what that is.

Elise Loehnen [00:08:03]:
And then True and False Magic is with Phil. And it’s a funny one too, because originally we. We were supposed to do. I was supposed to work with him to. He wrote. He wrote. He has what are called the Tools. Yep.

Elise Loehnen [00:08:18]:
And so he wrote. Co wrote the Tools with this other psychotherapist, Barry Michaels. And Phil has, as you probably, if you watch the documentary Stutz, he has pretty advanced Parkinson’s and can’t just sit and type. And so I came in to work with him and the idea was, can you guys make something that’s a workbook? Workbook, like for the Tools. But we just wrote an entirely new book. And it’s funny, they still called it. It’s called like, it still has workbook for the. They like wanted to own that on Amazon, I think.

Elise Loehnen [00:08:55]:
And so it still says that. But anyone who buys it thinking that they’re buying a workbook for the Tools is. Wait, no, it’s not long. Yeah, it’s like 120 pages. But it is essentially like Phil’s philosophical and spiritual model and understanding of the world and how it works. And it’s full of tools and very practical. But. But yeah, it’s a book, but it, it’s funny.

Julie Jancis [00:09:17]:
It’s kind of like your conversation as it flows, which I really appreciated reading. You talk about a lot. But I think that this audience will love to hear it this way. Phil talks about God in this way where he says, you know, even if you don’t believe in God or you’re talking to somebody who doesn’t believe in God, you still have to say, you know, there’s a world here, like a physical world. There wasn’t anything before, you know, in this universe of ours, but it’s all here now. And there was an energy of force that created something from nothing. And that energy is within all of us. And really all our lives are.

Julie Jancis [00:09:59]:
Is creating something from nothing.

Elise Loehnen [00:10:01]:
Such. It was such an honor and so fun to sit with him and work on this because he has. And people think that he’s, you know, like a car inspired by Carl Jung. And there’s some like, Carl. Carl Jung is a big influence in my life. And that’s part of it. It’s more Rudolph Steiner, but it’s like this. His own version of how he understands the world.

Elise Loehnen [00:10:23]:
And yes, he, he talks a lot about God, but he talks about it also as like the universe and the life force. It’s very. These very tangible ways where you are like, oh, right, I recognize my part in this great unfolding mystery. And more I think poignantly and why his work has been so resonant with so many people, particularly a lot of creatives. I mean, partly it’s because he’s in LA and he has this clientele of a ton of screenwriters and directors and creators, and that’s actors. But that his work very. In a very mundane. Which.

Elise Loehnen [00:11:01]:
Mundane. The etymology of mundane is world. Mundus, World Practical way teaches you how to be in touch with your life force. Because I think so many of us live our lives thinking, I’m gonna sort of be this mighty creator doing whatever it is that I do, whether I’m a writer or a lawyer. Like, we have these, sort of. Rightly, I would say, inflated senses of, like, what we’re supposed to do here. And yet his point is that these very deflated creatives show up in his office being like, I can’t. I’m not generating the masterpieces that I know that I should be.

Elise Loehnen [00:11:37]:
And he’s like, you are not connected to your life force in the most mundane, practical way.

Julie Jancis [00:11:43]:
Yeah.

Elise Loehnen [00:11:44]:
Like, do you pick up a pencil every morning for 10 minutes? Like, do you take walks around the block? What are you eating? Not in, like, a wellness world type of way, but in this, like, you have got to cultivate and touch your life force in the most, like, basic, simple ways in order to create forward momentum in your life and put yourself in touch with the universe or God or whatever it is that you want to, however you want to classify it in a way that I think many of us, we feel that we know what it is to be like, oh, this is coming through me. I am, like, in touch with something greater than myself.

Julie Jancis [00:12:18]:
Yes. Well, you guys put it in a couple of different ways. So explain Universe One and Universe Two.

Elise Loehnen [00:12:24]:
Yeah, I wish I could fully channel Phil here. I did interview him on my podcast, and we talk about Universe One and Universe Two a little bit. If people want to go back and listen to that. There’s not that much of Phil on tape, but Universe One is ruled by numbers and money. Really. It’s like the baseline reality is money. We are very much living in Universe One. What happens in Universe One is that you start making.

Elise Loehnen [00:12:48]:
Basing your. Your decisions and your values on money on these. On numbers, and anything of, like, that has a numerical value. You might be an artist who makes $50,000 a year, and maybe you, like, have. You’re loving your life, and then someone moves in across the street who makes $250,000 a year, and you’re like, oh, I’m not winning. Like, I’m not winning here. So Universe one becomes completely constrained by, by money. And suddenly you’re trading off your creative potential and your value for, for like, for any monetary gain.

Elise Loehnen [00:13:24]:
Universe 2 and, and his point is, like, it’s not about like, you’re universe one person and then you get to go to universe two and stay there. His whole this, his whole worldview is like, these are ongoing unfolding processes that require constant work, engaging with uncertainty, pain, et cetera. Like, you’re never done. There’s no finish line. There’s no like, I’m a Universe 2 person. And in Universe 2, the value is in what you create. That is it. That is the only thing that matters.

Elise Loehnen [00:13:51]:
It’s just about what you create and not putting a value on the creation either. He’s, he would say God doesn’t give a shit. He swears a lot, but like, God doesn’t care what you create. This, he’s not like passing out great. Um, it’s just all he cares is that you are creating. And this has stayed with me very deeply but that Phil, Phil holds that the antidote to evil is not quote, unquote, goodness. And this is where our work sort of starts to Venn diagram in interesting ways, but that the antidote to evil is creativity.

Julie Jancis [00:14:25]:
Say that again.

Elise Loehnen [00:14:26]:
The antidote to evil is creativity. I love Phil because he doesn’t. He reads a lot, but not really so much anymore. But like the way that he perceives the world is so simple and reduced and yet it’s also informed by, by 80, you know, his 80 odd years. But then that starts like, pinging with like the M. Scott Pecks and these other sort of theological psychiatrists and therapists who have been able to bridge the psychological and the spiritual in their work. And M. Scott Peck would talk, it talks about evil is like antipathy and laziness.

Elise Loehnen [00:14:59]:
Not in the sense of like, Julie, did you get to your. To like, are you engaging with life? And so I really love that idea that the antidote to evil is not goodness, it is creativity. It is forward motion despite resistance and despite, you know, part X yipping. That’s a Phil Stutz concept to yipping to get you to stop creating, which is really one of Pardex’s primary motivations, is to make you, to hold you, keep you from moving forward.

Julie Jancis [00:15:29]:
Well, and that we got to explain for people too, what part X is because I think, you know, there are times in your life where you go to counseling and you learn like this whole nother language for relating to your partner or relating to your life. And you can use these new words. And really, if you. I believe all of Elise’s books, Phil’s books, you know, they’re just books that you should have on your shelf. And I’ll tell you, you know, I always tell you which books. True and False Magic, I have actually on our best behavior displayed on my bookshelf. But True and False Magic is one of those books where, like, you come away with this new terminology where you’re like, oh, okay. If all of my family members know what Universe one and Universe two is, we can say to one another, I think I’m in universe one today, and I’m trying to get into universe, too.

Julie Jancis [00:16:16]:
And we know where one another are. And we also can say, I think I’m in a bit of Project X right now. And we can know what a Part X. And we can know what that means. Describe part X.

Elise Loehnen [00:16:31]:
Okay. And again, I wish I could. I wish Phil were here, but this is. Can get a little heady. But this is also why I love Phil, because I feel like he takes these concepts that are quite heady and makes them practical. And so that’s what I’m aiming for. It might be a slightly imperfect definition, but we have sort of work. We’re conscious, right? And then we have this massive unconscious.

Elise Loehnen [00:16:53]:
We’re aware of all of these, like, sensorial inputs, et cetera. Then there’s, like, the unconscious in us that’s, like, all the parts of ourselves that we don’t want to look at and have disowned and sort of like, put in the trash bag, right? That’s the unconscious. Jung would call that sort of the shadow. But that’s slightly different than the way that Phil talks about Pardax, because he makes it. I think shadow, which is one of the focuses of my work, can get a little nebulous and like, well, what is it and what is it? And so he actually calls it Part X and gives it somewhat of a personality that is like a more active form of shadow. It is that you could think of it in some ways as. As an inner critic. It is somewhat supercharged by your own unconscious, but maybe supercharged if you want to go there, by other energies in the universe.

Elise Loehnen [00:17:45]:
But it is. Its job is to essentially sew doubt, slow you down and stop you from creating. Right? It has sort of this evil personality, in the sense of it’s not your inner antichrist, but it is that part of you that’s like, you don’t really need to do that, or you’re too Good for that, Julie. Or like, my pardax. And you can actually hear, hear. Phil confronting me on this in my podcast was. And I had not thought of it, so this is how insidious Pardex, our pardex, can be for us. I was talking about how I feel like there’s such.

Elise Loehnen [00:18:22]:
This in the. Everything that’s happening in the world and the rise of uncertainty and anxiety and fear and that I wish I had a more prominent voice. And there are all these male podcasters who are out there just, like, drowning us out and. And being fed by us and that I don’t want to participate in the marketing of myself or the promulgation of what I’m doing because it feels sort of antithetical to the whole point, which is like, I’ll be found by the people who need to find me, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was just, like, telling this whole story, and he was like, that is your part X. And, yeah, he was like, that’s your part X. That’s, like, exonerating you from putting yourself out there or doing what needs to be done to make your work grow. That’s your part X.

Elise Loehnen [00:19:11]:
But it disguises itself as, like, moral being too. As, like, goodness or being too moral or too pure or whatever it is. And I was like, oh, God, Phil. And he was like, you need to be 10% more evil. I was like, what? Yeah, it’s a really interesting conversation, but it, like, really stayed with me, and I wrote about it a fair amount of my substack because he was like, your part X is, like, keeping you small, and you’re enabling it, but you’re not conscious of, like, what’s actually happening in your psyche, which is that your part X is winning.

Julie Jancis [00:19:45]:
Beautiful soul. I just want to take a moment and say I am so excited to share something truly sacred with you. This October 3rd, 4th, and 5th, we’ll gather for the Women’s Retreat. Three days of deep rejuvenation, angelic connection, and soul remembrance. If you’ve been feeling disconnected, unsure of your future, or longing for something more, this retreat was created just for you. Imagine stepping away from the weight of daily life into an energetic sanctuary where you’re held, supported, and guided back to the truth of who you are. Here, you’ll laugh, release, and reconnect with your soul’s deepest yearnings. This is your time to reconnect with your angels and awaken to the next chapter of your journey.

Julie Jancis [00:20:41]:
And because I never want finances to stand in the way of a retreat, I’ve created a Scholarship option just for this retreat. If your heart is called this space, friends, I promise it’s awaiting just for you. Come join us@theangelmedium.com retreat. Say yes to your soul. Say yes to your angels. Say yes to this retreat. Questions? Email me at julie theangel medium.com and now here we go, back into the show. Okay, so I want to go deeper into this, but I just have to pause and ask, do you think Choosing wholeness over Goodness did that come after? Because I know sometimes books we have done way in advance and they just don’t come out in time.

Julie Jancis [00:21:27]:
Did you write Choosing Wholeness over Goodness.

Elise Loehnen [00:21:30]:
After True and false magic somewhat simultaneously? It’s like an interesting synchronicity. Choosing Wholeness, where the title comes from is this Carl Jung idea that I think he said something to the effect of like, I would rather be whole than good.

Julie Jancis [00:21:44]:
Yeah.

Elise Loehnen [00:21:45]:
And so that came out of this idea that I didn’t realize it at the time, but when I wrote on our Best Behavior, I was really writing about the cultural shadow of women that and I used the seven deadly sins, which were not originally in the Bible, as the frame of looking at this punch card of goodness for, for women and, and everything that had been passed down to us as sort of bad qualities of a woman because men do not have not imbibed these. In the same way men are conditioned for power, women are conditioned for these qualities of goodness in order to keep these threatening ideas like lust, anger, gluttony, greed, pride away from our psyches because we have been conditioned to believe that they’re bad. It just goes into the cultural shadow of what it is to be a woman. And so the workbook and this idea of choosing wholeness is like actually these are part of who we are. We’re human. And it’s our job in a very studsian way to work with these energies and metabolize them and balance them and not repress or suppress them and let them guide our lives from the trash bags over our shoulders. But to be, to be consciously embraced. So, yeah, so they’re similar, but.

Elise Loehnen [00:22:58]:
But different. But all in. They’re all in the same family. Julie?

Julie Jancis [00:23:01]:
Yes, 100. Well, it’s fascinating. You know, let’s see a couple different things. I’m just hearing to tell everybody in the audience that if you want to listen to the podcast episode that Elise and I did on on your best Behavior, we’ll put that in the show notes too, so that they can refer back to that one, but part X, that part X within You. I. I like how you guys talk about it in the book because we often think about it, like, we’re gonna hear it, we’re gonna see it. We’re gonna see the subtle ways in which it’s working in our lives, and we don’t. And just.

Julie Jancis [00:23:36]:
You guys talk about doubt, right? How that subtle doubt can keep you spinning or can keep you stuck. And people want certainty. So maybe we can talk about both of these things. Because, you know, when you’re having. I don’t know if you have a counselor or therapist, but I have a counselor woman who runs her own business, too, that I found, who’s just one wonderful. And I have, like, a standing monthly appointment with her. And she’s like, julie, I think that what you want most out of life is certainty. Like, you are just waiting to.

Julie Jancis [00:24:08]:
To have everything be definitive, where you can say, you know, if I do this, everything’s going to be good. I’m going to be happy. You know, success will stay. Because we think about success as that it comes and it stays, but it doesn’t. All the time. It. I think that life breathes. I’ve been saying that a lot lately, that it expands and it contracts and it expands and it contracts.

Julie Jancis [00:24:32]:
And it’s hard not to have that certainty.

Elise Loehnen [00:24:36]:
Yes. Isn’t it brutal? And there is no certainty. It’s a total illusion for anybody. Yeah. And true and false magic is structured around. They’re called the three domains. These are the three domains that we contend with throughout our lives. There is no exoneration from any of these domains.

Elise Loehnen [00:24:53]:
You don’t get over them. You don’t get through them. These are sort of the baseline reality of life, which is that we’re always going to be contending with uncertainty. There’s the constant need for work. Again, you’re never done. Like, there’s no. No sense of there. You’re not retiring from life.

Elise Loehnen [00:25:11]:
That pain is. Is part of this experience, and you can’t avoid it. Again, he has so many amazing, you know, talks about the realm of illusion, which is sort of like, sits on top of all these. And he would see it in his practice all the time. The young star who’s like, I did it. I. I got my marquee role. I’m famous.

Elise Loehnen [00:25:30]:
I can get a table anywhere in the city. I’m rich. You know, and then they’re like, oh, my God, there’s no there there. I have escaped nothing. Not only have I not escaped anything, now I’ve also am, like, left to deal with, like, the reality that there’s no escape. Because I think for so many of us, like, we’re on that hedonic treadmill or whatever, we’re like, but we will get there someday. But once you get there and you’re like, oh, there’s no there there. God, that’s a little crushing, right? So that’s called the realm of illusion.

Elise Loehnen [00:25:57]:
But to your point about uncertainty, I don’t remember exactly where these concepts sit in the book, but they’re relevant to all. He talks about this. This idea. He. He calls it the science of reality. And I think it’s such an amazing tool or practice, which is that we are so convinced of certainty. We’re so convinced that we can predict or engineer our future and that we know what’s going to happen. Right? And so when he was a young.

Elise Loehnen [00:26:27]:
And Phil doesn’t teach anything he hasn’t learned on his own. But when he was a young psychiatrist, he’s a fascinating backstory. He was a psychiatrist on Rikers island, et cetera, before he moved to California. But he would be filled with anxiety and fear and doubt about his ability to support himself. And he would have all these stories, and he would convince himself that, like, everyone was going to fire him and da, da, da, da. And so he started this practice called the Science of Reality, which I highly recommend everyone do, where you write down the predictions of Part X. So when something comes up that’s like, julie, nobody’s going to listen to this episode or whatever it is, you write it down, and then you check your predictions and you do it just as a mechanism for recognizing that you are, like. You might get one right occasionally, but that you are largely terrible at predicting the future.

Elise Loehnen [00:27:21]:
So it’s a really good, like, antidote to anxiety to be like, okay, let’s have it. Part X. Like, it can even be an inner monologue. Tell me all the terrible things that are going to happen to my child at camp this summer. Okay, Pardax, tell me, like, what’s going to happen on this pitch call, you know, whatever it is. And then to be like, I know nothing. I know nothing.

Julie Jancis [00:27:40]:
Well, because we have this mentality that we don’t want to address that something is going to be the end all, be all that. Like, just kind of. We figure out the secret to life, the recipe to life, and then we don’t have any more challenges afterwards. But there’s nobody here who doesn’t have challenges. I had a client recently. I’m going to change this story around a little bit so that people don’t know who she is. But let’s say she created just like, the best product, right? That’s going to just change people’s lives. And she has this meeting coming up with these big corporations to buy the product.

Julie Jancis [00:28:15]:
And she was looking at it like it was the end all, be all. The meeting was the end all, be all. It’s not. Her entire life is as a creator, an inventor, a change maker. And this one meeting wasn’t. I could see it so clearly that it wasn’t going to make or break anything. That she’s part of this path that as she takes each step, she’s going to bring this into the world and it’s going to be so fantastic. She’s going to create other things after that.

Elise Loehnen [00:28:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 100%. And like Phil would say in that context, like, the person who puts the most pearls on the string is, like, the most potent creator. Like, that’s the goal. How do you become the most potent creator? And again, like, we used a lot of creative examples in the book, but this isn’t about writing or making a painting. This is about any. Any type of work is ultimately generally creative. You are making something out of nothing.

Julie Jancis [00:29:13]:
So how have you learned to become comfortable with uncertainty?

Elise Loehnen [00:29:20]:
Primarily through acceptance and then becoming really conscious in those moments when I’m like, I really want to know what happens, and I have those urges and I. What’s funny about me is that, like, when I can be certain of, like, how Love island ends or a book, because I watch everything late, et cetera, then I will look ahead and just know and, like, live with the certainty of knowing what’s going to happen on the next episode of Love Island. So that is, like, maybe I do that as I’m explaining this as, like, a way to scratch that itch so that I can live with uncertainty day to day. In the present moment, I had.

Julie Jancis [00:29:58]:
The audience knows this. I had a random experience where I was just right out of college, was going on a work trip, went to an airport in o’, Hare, and it was just crazy. You couldn’t find a place to sit down type of thing. Ended up asking this guy if I could sit at his table by, like, the eatery area. And he just started talking to me about manifestation. And this is probably back in 2004, right? And so he starts talking to me about this before the secret ever comes out. And he tells me to read all these books, the game of life and how to play it, how to win friends and influence people. And so I start playing around with these manifestation Techniques that he teaches me, and you start to realize that you can manifest.

Julie Jancis [00:30:41]:
But the way that I manifest is I almost want to control everything, right? Like, I get this energy, this idea to go in a direction, Then I just start working on it, go do the thing, and, hey, it’s either going to work out or it’s going to flop. Either way, you’re going to put the next pearl on the string later, and you’re just going to keep going. But there was a point at which, over the last couple of years, that you start looking behind the curve, the curtain, in a way. And it’s kind of like, so much is pay to play behind the scenes, you know? And I think one of my thoughts was just like, oh, if you’re really good at what you do, if you’re really good author, if you’re really good speaker, they’re just gonna, like, pull you into things. But so much today is still who, you know, and kind of like this pay to play concept. It just kind of felt like the wizard of Oz, like, peeking behind the curtain and seeing that it’s not this giant, you know, wizard, just this small little person behind there. And I think I went from being a really positive person about everything, wanting to control and manifest everything, to just kind of not caring in a way, just kind of having a complete indifference. And I found that that’s not great either, because when you have just this complete indifference, you’re kind of in neutral in the car.

Julie Jancis [00:32:00]:
The car’s not going forward. The car’s not going backwards. It’s just sitting there. And so I’m starting to wonder if maybe there’s a way to live your life every day with, okay, this is where we’re going. This is what we’re doing. This is what we’re manifesting the next book or whatever it is, and marching to that and. And. And using that energy as a momentum to get you where you’re going.

Julie Jancis [00:32:30]:
And really, at the end of the day, I don’t care, you know, like, if it work this way or that way. I know I’m gonna learn what I need to learn for the next step.

Elise Loehnen [00:32:39]:
Yeah, no, there’s so much in that, I think. And it goes to sort of that original conversation with Phil where I was having sort of the similar complaint. Like, yeah, I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to be, like, pushing out, like, five hacks for, you know, I don’t want to do this. It’s. It feels like soul murder. And so there was part of it where he was like, there’s some part X in there and you need to be 10% more evil. And so I think it’s like, it’s like putting yourself in motion is required.

Elise Loehnen [00:33:11]:
It can’t just be this passive. Like, I’m gonna put this out there and hope something happens. I’m still working on finding that balance because, like, I get very jaded too. And I’m sure people look at me and think like, oh, like, she knows a lot of people. You know, same thing, right? But I would say that, yes, I think we are living in sort of this fake meritocracy. I think a lot of that has been punctured. Right. The illusion, like, if you just make something great, people will find it is an illusion.

Elise Loehnen [00:33:41]:
I write about that a fair amount on my sub stack just because I think it’s like a really painful reckoning for people who are like, if you build it, they will come. It’s like, oh, God, I wish. There’s a lot of great unrecognized talent and then there’s a lot of subpar talent with incredible marketing skills that knows how to use technology. So we’re sort of like contending and finding some sort of new. I don’t want to say normal, but it’s definitely disheartening, I think, for people who are like, I want to do the thing, not like, sell the thing and market the thing. And it feels overwhelming. So I think that let’s tell people.

Julie Jancis [00:34:15]:
Like, what we mean by this too, because I know people who have like really big podcasts. And I felt this way for a long time with mine, like, oh, if I could just get my podcast to one of the bigger companies who do the podcast podcast, then it’ll reach more people. But I’ve had a lot of conversations with folks who are with those companies and they want to know your numbers. And it’s kind of soul sucking too, because they’re like, well, your numbers are too low and we need your numbers to be here. And here are like the ads that we’re going to be running on your program. And then it’s like 5 minutes of ads at the beginning, 5 minutes of ads in the middle, 5 minutes ads at the end. And so we’re always thinking that there’s more, there’s a grass is greener on the other side, but it isn’t.

Elise Loehnen [00:34:57]:
Yeah. And I think that then what happens in our universe, one culture, is that then you’re like, oh, now I have all of this, but I still don’t have that. Right. And so where you wanted the 10 foot boat before, you’re like, but it’s not 50ft and it’s not 100. Right. Like, we’re all familiar with our culture and how it drives. And then you’re suddenly like, oh, now I’ve built this thing and I need to support it with this team. And now I need to, like, work even harder because I have five people relying on me for healthcare.

Elise Loehnen [00:35:29]:
Right. Like, it’s just this endless climb. It’s like I’m. I’m in a group with other women and sort of in, in media. It’s like we’re all at different stages and phases and like, everyone’s struggling because even the people who have had sort of like tremendous universe one success are like, now, like, I have to keep this going and there’s so much complexity. Like, it’s just very hard, period. I have a lot of different jobs that I string together to make sort of a nice living. And I kind of wouldn’t have it any other way.

Elise Loehnen [00:36:00]:
Even though I protest and I’m like, I wish my podcast were bigger. And, you know, it’s really hard to make a living as a writer, so I can’t just write books. Like, that’s a fantasy. So I do lots of things and then those things together add up and it’s like I have a couple of people who help me freelance with my podcast, but mostly I’m just doing it myself. And so that has been very peaceful. Having worked at big companies and a lot of people years ago when I left and sort of had a big high profile job, they were like, well, clearly you’re going to go and raise and build something. And I’m like, absolutely not. Because raising money to heard Mark Cuban say this.

Elise Loehnen [00:36:37]:
Like, raising money is not. What did he say? It’s not an achievement, it’s an obligation. Yeah. Going and hiring a bunch of people who I need to then support even as they’re supporting me, and then I need to sell this thing and return, make a return to investors. And it’s like a very harsh way of thinking about your life and what you want to do. And so I think it’s a very potent question for a lot of creators, finding that bridge between doing what you feel called to do and making a living from it and do the two need to be the same thing? And I mean, I’m still. I have so many stories about money that I’m. I’ll be working through those for the rest of my life because I just can’t.

Elise Loehnen [00:37:19]:
I don’t Want to cut, like, a hundred AI trailers and, like, go out there and use fear. I was just listening to, like, a young marketer on a podcast this morning who helped build a very. One of the biggest podcasts. And she’s like, well, and she’s. She sounds really smart, but it’s like, I had. I was like, stop. You know, she was like, one of the biggest ho. It’s like, you use fear.

Elise Loehnen [00:37:38]:
It’s like fear of missing out, fear of not knowing what other people know. Fear. I was like, really? It is. Obviously, we know this, but I’m like, you don’t think we’re swimming in fear in this culture right now? Like, my. I’m trying to take the pulse down for people and not freak people out through, like, drama triangle marketing and fear and peddling certainty.

Julie Jancis [00:37:58]:
One of the things that, like, totally kind of brought me back into more ease is seeing just a woman that I love and adore, and I’ve just loved and adored her work for 30 years, and kind of thinking that getting to her point would be the end all, be all, and then realizing, oh, my gosh, she goes around to the country and she speaks to groups of 30, 50, 100, 200 people, three different states a week, you know, sometimes. And that she’s still just a creator, right? I don’t mean just, but, like, we’re all just creating something out of nothing. Whatever we’re doing is in our hearts not because there’s a finish line, but just because it’s the journey.

Elise Loehnen [00:38:44]:
It feels like regardless of what you do as your profession, that you look out and you’re like, this is the. The path, right? Like, if I’m a lawyer, I’m going to make partner. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, we see these accretive pathways to what we’re supposed to want and where we’re supposed to go with, like, again, this universe, one value of money at being most prominent. And, yeah, money solves a lot of problems. So I don’t want to suggest that. Like, I hate it when people are like, you shouldn’t care about money. I’m like, if you don’t have a lot of money, you definitely care about money, right? Like, there is a baseline which we fail to meet in this country in terms of just, like, ensuring that people’s basic needs are met, right? And then when that’s not happening, there’s, like, nothing but fear and scarcity at play.

Elise Loehnen [00:39:25]:
So I get it, I get it, but we’re just like, given this, we’re like, you got to choose stability over meaning. And I don’t think that those are always opposite. At opposite ends, but also that, like, there’s a set way to do things. And I know a lot of people talk, like, want to write books so that they can go and speak. And I’m like, if that is what you want to do, that is great. But when I see something like that on my calendar that I agreed to because the money was good or whatever it was in that moment, I was like, maybe this will be fun. It’s like my energy just, like, hits the ground, right? Like, it’s like, oh, my God, I am not built for that. I always end up liking it more than I think I will.

Elise Loehnen [00:40:07]:
But, yeah, that’s hard. Like, nothing’s easy. There again, the need for constant work. So it’s like, where’s the work gonna be? Is it in the creation or is it in the marketing of it and being really good at that? Or is it, you know what. Where’s the work gonna be?

Julie Jancis [00:40:23]:
Yeah, because you guys talk about in the book, too, that, you know, at some point, most successful people sabotage themselves, you know, because of that. And that’s fascinating, too.

Elise Loehnen [00:40:34]:
Yes, 100%. Which is. It’s called HIPAA. And it’s this idea that, like, you actually have to protect what you create. I’m trying to think of exactly what everything stands for. I can look it up, but it’s ignorance. It’s. I can look it up for you if you want, but essentially it’s this idea that this isn’t Phil Stutz, this is gay and Katie Hendricks.

Elise Loehnen [00:40:51]:
But I think it applies here, which is the upper limit problem. I don’t know if you’ve ever interviewed Katie, but it’s this idea that, like, there’s a certain tolerance that we have, and we all have our own. It’s almost like a set weight, the set tolerance for how good things can be. Before we start to get very scared about sort of like the energy changing or shifting. The upper limit problem, which is another way of describing the same phenomenon, is that you hit that limit and instead of be and you need to conscious, they have a whole bunch of tools for this, where it’s like, I’m going to allow all this abundance and, like. But the instinct, and I have this instinct is like, I gotta go spend some money or give some money away in order to, like, return to the baseline that I’m most comfortable with. With, or, God, everything’s really good with my husband right now. I’m gonna pick a fight.

Elise Loehnen [00:41:36]:
Or I cannot tolerate all of this success. So I’m gonna destroy my career. I’m gonna sabotage myself. But it’s. It’s different language to describe the same phenomenon where you’re like, that’s what I’m doing. I cannot tolerate this much good feeling or this much abundance or this much, like, deliciousness. And so I gotta get back to what. What feels familiar.

Julie Jancis [00:41:59]:
Yeah. What was that term that Katie used.

Elise Loehnen [00:42:01]:
For that called the upper limit problem?

Julie Jancis [00:42:03]:
So the other thing that is creating is what life is about. That’s what your book, that book is just so profound in that, you know, you said it before, God doesn’t care if you get a New York Times bestseller. God doesn’t care if your podcast turns into a TV show. Nobody’s watching TV anymore anyway. It’s just about creating. And I think that you said God cares whether or not you’re engaged with life and just creating, and that. That’s it. Like, if you keep creating, you’re in that life force energy.

Julie Jancis [00:42:33]:
I call it oneness energy, where you’re just one with all that is. And from that place, you can just hear what’s your next pearl versus if you get stuck, self sabotage. You keep yourself in that doubt. You’re not in that life force energy.

Elise Loehnen [00:42:49]:
And like the life force, like the way that Phil defines it, it’s like a very simple triangle. And the bottom is a relationship to your body, relationship to other people, and relationship to yourself in sort of a capital S way. And so the very basic practices of recovering and staying connected to your life force are like being embodied, going on a walk, eating well, whatever that means to you. Getting up and picking up a pencil and. And then connections with other people. It’s like calling your parents, calling a friend, whatever that looks like. He’s like, it is that mundane and like, that practical. But when he is with someone who has just cratered their life and is like, I, but is like you has maybe touched being a super creator or, like, has had power, whatever it is.

Elise Loehnen [00:43:40]:
It’s like, get off the couch, get on a bike and go down the street, and then let’s talk. And so through that, you get sort of the engine revving. You get it. I think we can all relate to this, right? It’s like you gotta start there and then you work on your relationship with yourself. Yeah, but you gotta start at the basics.

Julie Jancis [00:44:02]:
I feel energy. I’ve always felt energy. And I think that I feel. I don’t feel gratitude in universe one, I feel gratitude in universe two. And just holding that pencil, being a writer myself, just Gives me such a yummy vibration even thinking about it, because.

Elise Loehnen [00:44:22]:
Yes.

Julie Jancis [00:44:22]:
And when I tune into the other side, they always talk about the realm of all possibilities. There is a realm of all possibilities for our soul, for this lifetime, I believe, for future lifetimes as well. And I think that that string of pearls isn’t just this lifetime. It’s lifetime after lifetime after lifetime. Because energy is neither created nor destroyed.

Elise Loehnen [00:44:45]:
Totally. I love it. Yeah. And I love that you said that people think True and False Magic is like a four Agree men’s level book, I think. I mean, I think he’s an amazing figure.

Julie Jancis [00:44:56]:
Oh, my gosh. Oh, you are too. You are too. You’re right there with him. Oh, my gosh. I watched that with him on it, and I was like, oh, my gosh. You just want to go so much deeper. And you got the opportunity to do that, and you did us all proud.

Elise Loehnen [00:45:09]:
Elise, that was amazing. No, I really, really took it seriously in the sense of, like, this is important because the tool, which many people who are listening have probably read or own a copy of, and it’s great. It’s these three sort of master big tools that they’re really known for. But there’s so much more. Like, there’s just so much. And that’s not even. It’s not even all of it. As I was leaving, you know, he’s like, giving.

Elise Loehnen [00:45:31]:
Printing out more tools. I’m like, oh, my God, Phil. I know, I know, I know.

Julie Jancis [00:45:37]:
Maybe there’s a part two to that.

Elise Loehnen [00:45:39]:
I know.

Julie Jancis [00:45:41]:
But, Elise, I just want to leave with this. And you got to tell everybody where. Where they can find you and your podcast. I. I don’t know if it’s okay to say this, but just I look at you, and your work is just the epitome of special and authentic. And just. I know I relate to, like, wanting it to be more or wanting more people to listen or to read, but I think you have the audience who just loves you so incredibly much and keep just being in universe, too, because when you are, so much beauty comes out of your being.

Elise Loehnen [00:46:18]:
Yeah, no, thank you. Yeah. And it’s like when I examine that desire for sort of more too similar to you, it’s like, okay, and then what? You know, like, what’s. What’s that about? So. No, I think it’s really important. I love. I have to say, I’m sure you feel the same way, but when I meet people in the wild who listen to the show or have read one of my books, I’m like, it’s Just. I’m so pleased.

Elise Loehnen [00:46:42]:
Like, God, these people are great. You know, it’s like, not an identity crisis that I think you can sort of get when you’re, like, trying to cultivate an audience through developing a Persona. And then you’re like, who? I don’t. You know, you’re crazy. You create something else. So. Thank you.

Julie Jancis [00:46:56]:
You have time for me to ask you one more question? Little. I was gonna. I was thinking about this earlier. How do you spend your day? Because talking about all of this, I was in universe one for a while. I’m back to universe two, because people want to know the numbers. When you’re trying to build it up, they want to know your numbers. They want to know how good you’re doing. And so comes about these numbers.

Julie Jancis [00:47:16]:
And I. I got to a point where I was like, all this. Like, I just cannot. Cannot be myself and do that too. And so I just thought, this is what I’m going to do for the rest of my life. This is who I am. I’m just gonna. And I’m gonna go on walks in the morning, and I’m going to listen to books, and I’m gonna, you know, get stuff done around the house.

Julie Jancis [00:47:37]:
And just whenever Spirit kind of calls me, I’m gonna create, but I’m not gonna force it.

Elise Loehnen [00:47:44]:
I agree 100%.

Julie Jancis [00:47:46]:
So what is your daily routine? Yeah.

Elise Loehnen [00:47:48]:
Yeah. I mean, I. So I don’t have, like, a. It’s not that. It’s. It’s highly different depending on what’s happening today. You know, I got up and I went to my workout class, which I love, and got a coffee at my favorite place on my way home. And then I’ve been doing calls and.

Elise Loehnen [00:48:06]:
And odds and ends. Yesterday I had a day for writing. I’m working on my next book. And so I try and carve time that’s long for that, if possible, but it’s. I don’t always. It’s really hard to predict. Similar to you. It’s like, I find writing, like, giving birth, like, sometimes you’re like, I’m in labor, you know, like, it’s coming.

Elise Loehnen [00:48:27]:
And I spend so much time thinking about things before I’m ready to go. I’m not. Like, every morning from 6 to 8, I sit and I write 500 words. Like, I can write 3,000 words in a day. But I. It’s like the faucet is on or it’s not. Yeah. But I am.

Elise Loehnen [00:48:43]:
I have a couple of big book deadlines, so that’s. I’ve been doing a Lot of sort of full day writing. I like to be at home with my cats. Yeah. And my kids. And. Yeah. I like to, like, take walks.

Elise Loehnen [00:48:56]:
I’m. I’m pretty introverted and not very social. And so. Yeah, it’s like, depends on the day. I tend to like, like on. On my podcast, like, I will be sort of way ahead. And I read and I do. I have days sometimes where I do three in a row.

Elise Loehnen [00:49:14]:
I like to do it like that. That’s how I. I’m like, I’m very much like, I gotta get in the headspace. And then I batch produce or. Or write for an extended period of time, but only when I’m ready. Can’t force it.

Julie Jancis [00:49:25]:
Can’t force it. Amazing. Did you tell everybody where to find your podcast and you and all your books?

Elise Loehnen [00:49:30]:
Thank you. So my podcast is called Pulling the Thread, which is the name also of my substack, which is eliselinen.substack.com it’s very similar, but a lot of the stuff that we’ve been talking about today. And then my first book is called Honor Best Behavior and the paperback is out any day now. And then Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness is the workbook. You do not have to have read Honor Best Behavior to do the workbook.

Julie Jancis [00:49:57]:
Perfect.

Elise Loehnen [00:49:58]:
My editor wouldn’t want me to say that, but it’s true. Gives you sort of a Cliff Notes of Honor Best Behavior, but maybe it will inspire you to read the book. And then this book that we were talking about today is called True and False Magic with. With full studs. And yeah, that’s mostly. I mean, I’m on Instagram, but I hate Instagram, so come, come to the podcast. That’s the juiciest, I think, and I would do it for free. You know, I love doing my podcast.

Elise Loehnen [00:50:23]:
I’m sure you do too.

Julie Jancis [00:50:24]:
Yeah. Well, it’s interesting. As I was reading True and False Magic, I think it dives right over into your new wholeness over goodness, you know, because you’re actually getting in and doing the work to find out why you’re stalling, why you’re delaying and really be on your path to start creating.

Elise Loehnen [00:50:41]:
Yeah. And being like, yeah. Recovering those parts of ourselves, you know, endless work never done.

Julie Jancis [00:50:47]:
Never done, but so fun. And it brought me back to gratitude. Thank you for bringing me back to gratitude.

Elise Loehnen [00:50:54]:
My pleasure.

Julie Jancis [00:50:55]:
Awesome. Elise, I hope you come back when your new book is out.

Elise Loehnen [00:50:58]:
I would love to.

Julie Jancis [00:50:59]:
Awesome. Have a beautiful day. Thank you for being here.

Elise Loehnen [00:51:02]:
Thank you.

Julie Jancis [00:51:03]:
You too. Bye.

Elise Loehnen [00:51:05]:
Bye.

Julie Jancis [00:51:05]:
Beautiful souls. Before we close, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here, for listening, for walking this path of radiant energy oneness alongside me. Your presence means so much. If you feel called to go deeper. There are so many ways that we can journey together. The Angel Reiki School, the upcoming women’s retreat, the Angel Membership In September we begin a brand new course in the angel membership called clearly hear your intuition. And in October we’re starting a course called Find your purpose in 30 days.

Julie Jancis [00:51:43]:
These are soul shifting, life changing offerings and I would love to hold space for you inside them. You can join the angel membership to receive these courses or simply purchase them on their own@theangel medium.com membership. Or if you want to purchase them on their own, you can go to theangel medium.com backslash shop. And now let’s take a moment together. I want you to take three deep breaths. In and out. With each breath, feel love moving through you. Ask your angel the question or questions that are resting on your heart and then listen.

Julie Jancis [00:52:26]:
Their whispers arrive as intuition, as knowing, as peace. Friends, if you long to hear your angels more clearly, don’t forget I’ve got a course for this coming up in September where you can really start to hear your intuition more clearly. I’ll walk you through step by step. Until next time. Friends, Breathe, trust and know that you are never alone. Your angels are always, always, always with you. Love you.