Have questions about The Angel Membership or the Angel Reiki School?
Book a free Discovery Call with Julie 📞
https://calendly.com/juliejancius/discovery-call

Angel Reiki School (In-Person) 🏠
Oak Brook, IL
June 6–8, 2025 📅
Get certified in mediumship, energy healing, and angel communication 😇
https://theangelmedium.com/get-certified

Angel Reiki School (Online) 💻
Starts the 1st of every month 🔄
Learn from anywhere 🌍
https://theangelmedium.com/get-certified

21-Day Money Miracles Challenge 💰
Starts May 11, 2025 📆
Exclusive to Angel Members – JOIN TODAY ✨
https://theangelmedium.com/angelmembership

Book a 1-on-1 Angel Reading With Julie 👼
Connect with your angels and loved ones in Heaven ❤️
https://theangelmedium.com/readings

Want a Free Reading? 🎁
We’re selecting 50+ volunteers for free readings at the in-person Angel Reiki School.
Leave a 5-star review of the podcast and copy/paste it here for a shot to win 🌟
https://theangelmedium.com/contact

⚖️ Earnings Disclaimer: You agree that the Company has not made any guarantees about the results of taking any action, whether recommended on this Website or not. The Company provides educational and informational resources that are intended to help users of this website succeed in their online business and otherwise. You nevertheless recognize that your ultimate success or failure will be the result of your own efforts, your particular situation, and innumerable other circumstances beyond the control and/or knowledge of the Company. You also recognize that prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Thus, the results obtained by others – whether clients or customers of the Company or otherwise – applying the principles set out in this Website are no guarantee that you or any other person or entity will be able to obtain similar results.

In this soul-deep conversation, I sit with Henry Shukman—poet, Zen teacher, and author of Original Love—as he shares his life-altering awakening on a solitary beach at 19. We explore how a spontaneous experience of cosmic oneness shattered his rational worldview, the crushing depression that followed, and how meditation became his lifeline through suicidal darkness. Henry reveals what neuroscience says about timeless consciousness, why ‘emptiness’ is full of everything, and how surrendering to divine guidance (what he calls ‘getting the email’) rewires suffering into grace. If you’ve ever felt separate, stuck in time, or longed to touch the fabric of all-that-is, this episode is a love letter to your soul’s wholeness.”

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW

00:00 Intro

00:09 Announcements: Couples Podcast, Angel Reiki School, Readings

03:00 Julie’s Gratitude for Listeners

03:36 Guest Introduction: Henry Shukman, Author of Original Love

04:48 The “Three People Walk into Heaven” Analogy

08:25 Henry’s Beach Awakening: Oneness & Timeless Love

11:30 The Aftermath: Trauma, Depression & Suicidal Thoughts

17:43 How Meditation Saved Henry’s Life

23:43 Reconnecting with Parents Through Boundaries

28:57 Time Illusion: Stepping into the Eternal Now

35:51 “Getting the Email”: Divine Guidance & Surrender

38:42 Neuroscience of Awakening: Brain Networks & Oneness

48:46 Zen Koans, Arrival, & Communicating Beyond Time

50:36 Henry’s Meditation App “The Way” & Book Details

52:49 Closing Gratitude

---

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Julie: Hello beautiful souls. It’s Julie. Thank you so much for listening. Guess what, I’m actually recording this intro for you [00:00:09] from the pool. Never done that before, but hey, why not, right? Um, I just wanted to let you know a couple of different things some of you have been asking. Hey, Julie, [00:00:18] when are you and Blake?

[00:00:19] Starting that couples podcast, we’re actually not gonna start it until the beginning of September. It’s not gonna be within an angels and [00:00:27] awakening. It’ll be completely separate podcast. Um, I also wanted to let you know if you’ve been feeling the nudge to deepen your [00:00:36] connection with your angels, to help others heal.

[00:00:38] To finally say yes to your soul’s calling of becoming a healer yourself. This is it. [00:00:45] The Angel Reiki School is now open for online enrollment, and when you sign up today, you can start right away. You [00:00:54] get, um, online meetings with me and plus, this is a huge bonus when you register for the online Angel Reiki School, your [00:01:03] tuition to one of the in-person Angel Reiki School weekends within the next 12 months.

[00:01:10] That tuition will be completely [00:01:12] complimentary if you do the online school and you sign up for it today. Um, remember when you join the Angel Reiki school, [00:01:21] you are learning mediumship. Angel messaging, how to become an Angel Messenger yourself. You’ll be certified in that to [00:01:30] bring through messages for others.

[00:01:31] Also, energy healing. Friends, I love you so incredibly much and this is gonna give you a [00:01:39] skill that is gonna help you build possibly a six figure business plus yourself, um, which is what Spirit [00:01:48] wants for you, if that’s really what’s calling to your heart. Friends, I’m also booking private readings. Again, spots are limited and I’ve added a [00:01:57] discounted reading so that if you’re willing to let it air on the podcast, you get a discount for that.

[00:02:02] So if you’ve ever wanted a session with me, now is the [00:02:06] time Book your private reading or your reading, that’ll air on this show, uh, online at VT Angel. [00:02:15] medium.com, the angel medium.com. And finally, our sacred women’s circles begin August 1st. These are small, intimate [00:02:24] groups where you’re gonna grow spiritually, receive healing, and connect deeply with other soul led women.

[00:02:30] You can learn more and register for [00:02:33] everything here@theangelmedium.com. That’s the angel medium.com. Friends, thank you so much for your continued [00:02:42] support of me in this podcast. Because of you. I get to do what I love every single day. And friends, I am so incredibly [00:02:51] grateful. Getting to teach you in the membership, in the circles, in the Angel Reiki school is really, um, so [00:03:00] fulfilling.

[00:03:00] And, you know, just thinking about it brings tears to my eyes because you get, allow me to do what I love. And truly beyond [00:03:09] anything that that words can say, I am just so. So completely grateful and beyond Blessed to have you in my life. [00:03:18] Friends here is today’s episode, and I really cannot wait for you to hear this one because I just want you to feel the vibration as we go Along we [00:03:27] go so deep.

[00:03:28] Here’s today’s episode. Love you. Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening podcast. I’m your host and author, [00:03:36] Julie Janis, and today we’re here with the author of Original Love, Henry Shukman. Henry, welcome to the show.

[00:03:44] Henry Shukman: Thank you for [00:03:45] having me, Juli. It’s really fun to be to be with you.

[00:03:48] Julie: Amazing. Thank you. We have been interviewing guests here on the Angels and Awakening [00:03:54] Podcast for over six years. You know, so many people who listen to the show have been listening since the very beginning, and we do a [00:04:03] lot of teaching here on the show. We’ve also done so many interviews where. I don’t want it to feel repetitive.

[00:04:10] And so I was prey [00:04:12] on this interview and I kept hearing spirit say, talk to you about your experiences, because [00:04:21] all of our experiences are so different in life. And I’ve been getting this, uh, you know, spirit’s funny. [00:04:30] Sometimes when the angels come in, they can be humorous. And you know, the jokes that we grew up with in the eighties, the nineties.

[00:04:37] I keep hearing this [00:04:39] thing, uh, and I’m gonna set this up, tee this up for you online so much. Uh, recently I’ve seen a lot [00:04:48] of Christian, I. Men actually kind of coming after me and attacking me on Instagram. Um, [00:04:57] because I talk about angels, I talk about the intuition. I talk about, uh, how you get messages from the other side [00:05:06] and, you know, they’ll, they’ll be like.

[00:05:08] Why are you saying God, universe, source? It’s just God, you know? And, um, spirit has been showing me all [00:05:15] day long in this comedic way, three people walk into heaven. You know, the Christian, the spiritual person, and the Buddhist. [00:05:24] And there’s really, when you just look at. Their experiences of how they experienced the [00:05:33] divine as human beings in this earthly realm.

[00:05:38] That’s what connects us all. Mm-hmm. [00:05:42] That’s the fundamental truth of it all. And as we all stand before God, universe, source on the [00:05:51] other side, I really see all of the other pieces fall away. And it’s the experience, [00:06:00] us being here in human bodies, experiencing the divine that connects us.

[00:06:06] Henry Shukman: Mm-hmm. That’s lovely to [00:06:09] hear.

[00:06:09] I totally agree with you. And I’m sorry for all those guys who think they know. Something they don’t know, you know? Right. They were so, they were so [00:06:18] convinced by their doctrines that, um, that they’ve got all the answers and everybody else is wrong. Yeah. So, I feel sorry for them ’cause you know, that’s a [00:06:27] sad place to be stuck.

[00:06:28] It really is, and I know a lot of people are Alas Yeah. And I’m so happy. You know, the, the fastest growing [00:06:36] religious designation is spiritual, but not religious. Yeah. SBNR, it’s the fastest growing demographic in that, in the realm. Of [00:06:45] spirituality, which is such good news because

[00:06:47] Julie: such good news. I even heard a couple weeks ago that there’s a couple of publishing houses [00:06:54] that are building imprints.

[00:06:55] If people don’t know what that means, it’s like a subsidiary, maybe like off of the publishing house and [00:07:03] they’re building it out just for that category. Spiritual but not religious.

[00:07:08] Henry Shukman: Like five years ago on, in a big census done by civic [00:07:12] science, which is very sort of reputable, reliable thing. It was already 75 million people in the US alone and it’s been growing since then.

[00:07:20] So, I dunno [00:07:21] what the numbers are now, but you know, it’s, it’s really big, big demographic and I, I’ve gotta say. I like that message you’ve been [00:07:30] receiving. Ask him about his experiences, because that’s just the critical matter. I mean, I, they’re, they’re right on whatever those [00:07:39] messengers are. They’re right on.

[00:07:40] Because, you know, I was brought up totally rationalist, totally, you know, empirical, rational. [00:07:48] I was brought up in, in, actually, in Oxford University. Both my parents were professors. Wow. I went to a very, I, I went to a very sort of traditional [00:07:57] school. I was, you know, I, I was a very, I was quite a serious student.

[00:08:01] I worked hard. I, I got into Cambridge University when I was young actually, to go there to [00:08:06] do more studies of literature and language and stuff. But when I was 19, actually I was between [00:08:15] my. School days in Oxford and going to Cambridge University in between. I did a gap year. I went to [00:08:24] work in Argentina.

[00:08:25] It’s a bit of a story about that, but, and then I backpacked and towards the end of my trip backpacking, [00:08:33] and by the way, all that time I was trying to write my first book, which, which I did actually do. I wrote this book and it was published a few years later. But, but at the end of that [00:08:42] trip, I’d written.

[00:08:43] I’d written this book and it was sort of a mind blowing achievement of have written a book, you know? And I was very happy with it. And in that [00:08:51] state of kind of relief and sense of accomplishment and happiness, I was, one afternoon I was watching the [00:09:00] sunset on a beach. I was all alone. Totally, totally alone.

[00:09:04] And suddenly I had. Uh, an [00:09:09] experience that completely changed my understanding of who I was, what it was to be alive, what it was to be conscious, [00:09:18] what this world was, and my true relationship to it. And that’s, you know, this new book, original Love comes out of that experience and, and a lot [00:09:27] of meditation afterwards.

[00:09:28] But, but that, in that experience, I realized, I suddenly discovered that I was. [00:09:36] Absolutely not separate. Mm-hmm. I was part of the whole universe. Uh, it was just, there was no [00:09:45] question about it. That’s what I really was. Yeah. And I felt when I, when this happened, it sort of befall me, you know, it happened to me.

[00:09:52] It wasn’t like I. [00:09:54] Made it happen. I couldn’t possibly have made it happen. Right. I didn’t even know it was a possibility, you know? And I was, by the way, I was stone cold sober. I wasn’t interested in drugs or anything like that. [00:10:03] Just footnote, you know, not

[00:10:04] Julie: on psychedelics. Got it. Well, no, no,

[00:10:06] Henry Shukman: no, no, no. Not at, and I wasn’t interested in, yeah.

[00:10:10] Spirituality, you know, [00:10:12] but this suddenly, it was unmistakable. I am part of everything I belong. Not just as a [00:10:21] being in this universe, I belong because I’m made of this universe. The universe has made me into this form and I [00:10:30] don’t, and it didn’t make me separate from the universe. It was, it was an incredible discovery, you know?

[00:10:35] And I knew it was true. Yeah. I just knew it [00:10:39] was true and it kind of, you know, when it sort of faded, what I was left with was this sense of just an [00:10:48] unbelievable love. Mm. Like, like it’s as if everything really was a kind of dream of love. A dream made by love. Some greater [00:10:57] love was making this whole world and making this experience we call life and, and being a human being.

[00:11:03] And that was [00:11:06] just critical to my whole path in life. It wasn’t, you know, then I, I went home and I had some really hard times. I was really. [00:11:15] It was so hard to reintegrate and come back into my old life and go to college. It was, it was really, really difficult. And I also had this very difficult skin condition [00:11:24] that came back when I got home.

[00:11:27] But gradually, I found a path of healing. I found a path of meditation that [00:11:33] really helped me, and gradually I could actually revisit that incredible experience and go further. You know, make more discoveries like that. So [00:11:42] yeah, experiences have been like the bedrock of my life’s journey. What was different with this thing on the beach though, was that actually, it was this, it was [00:11:51] like, I mean, okay, if we were really gonna go there, I’ll tell you.

[00:11:55] Love it. Yes. It was like, it was really like, [00:12:00] I saw into what it, what consciousness itself was. It was like, it was like. I no longer was [00:12:09] seeing things.

[00:12:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:11] Henry Shukman: Instead, I dropped into this, you know, in Buddhism they call it, [00:12:18] which means emptiness, which doesn’t sound very good, but actually it’s marvelous. It means, yeah.

[00:12:23] It’s, it’s a level of experience where [00:12:27] it’s. It’s, well, what, in my case this time, this ’cause it’s these kinds of experiences and it’s only been a few in my life that were deep like this one, [00:12:36] and they’re all a little bit different, but they’re all images or angles on the same reality I think. But it was like, it was, it was like [00:12:45] there’s sort of nothing there, but this.

[00:12:47] It was like this, this sort of fabric, but it had no substance to it. And that’s [00:12:54] what everything was made of, and I was made of, and, and it went on forever. But the furthest part of it was somehow immediately close. [00:13:03] It was like, it, nothing was, there was no distance. It was all one reality. So even the furthest [00:13:12] reaches of the cosmos were, were somehow, they were right here.

[00:13:15] Yeah. And, you know, and, and that’s what my very own consciousness [00:13:21] and consciousness of all things was present. All things were present, but they weren’t substantial, you know? [00:13:30] Mm-hmm. I, I, I don’t know if that makes any sense, but It does. It was so beautiful. It was indescribably beautiful, and I, when it, it sort of faded and I kind of then [00:13:39] rem kind of remembered, oh yeah, I’m a.

[00:13:41] I’m a person standing on this beach. It sort of came back, you know?

[00:13:45] Yeah.

[00:13:45] Henry Shukman: But then I was hit by this wave [00:13:48] of love because I, it was as if I, did it

[00:13:50] Julie: make you cry?

[00:13:52] Henry Shukman: I don’t think it actually made me cry. I’m just, was [00:13:57]

[00:13:57] Julie: it the most powerful love that you’ve ever felt and yet you ever Yeah,

[00:14:01] Henry Shukman: it will. Have you

[00:14:01] Julie: ever been able to feel that again?

[00:14:03] Henry Shukman: Yes, I’m happy to say [00:14:06] I have. Yeah, I have. Because what happened, I, you know, like maybe five years after that I got [00:14:15] into, um. Regular daily meditation practice.

[00:14:18] Yeah.

[00:14:19] Henry Shukman: And it began to, I’d go after it. When I got home, I had a [00:14:24] really hard time and I got very tight, very anxious, quite depressed. It was very, it was, I could, there’s reasons for that, but I got into a really difficult place [00:14:33] and I, I mean, I was kind of doing my life, but really unhappily.

[00:14:36] Mm-hmm. Then I

[00:14:37] Henry Shukman: started meditating every day, every day? Every day. Twice a day, actually. Every [00:14:42] day.

[00:14:42] Yeah.

[00:14:42] Henry Shukman: And things started to soften.

[00:14:46] And I

[00:14:46] Henry Shukman: began to get more tender. And actually after a few [00:14:51] years, you know, I had another experience. Wow. A bit, a bit like that. And, and along the way, even before then, [00:15:00] actually, I really, yeah, I was, I had periods of that, that presence.

[00:15:07] Yeah. You know, moments of that [00:15:09] sudden presence were starting to come again. And sometimes I would just, my heart would be overwhelmed, uh, with a sense of, I don’t know why this [00:15:18] is, this is so beautiful. How come, how come we’re given this experience? You know? And there’d be great sense of tenderness and love though.

[00:15:26] Yeah. [00:15:27] And yeah, it’s, it’s, and you know, I believe that, and this is my book is a, is my new book is kind of about this, the. People [00:15:36] don’t talk about this, but I think the, maybe the real point of meditation

[00:15:41] mm-hmm.

[00:15:42] Henry Shukman: Is reconnecting with that [00:15:45] unconditional, boundless, I immortal, you know, love. Yeah. That just a love that does, doesn’t do time.[00:15:54]

[00:15:54] Julie: Right. You

[00:15:55] Henry Shukman: know, doesn’t do time or distance. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, I feel it’s sort of the fabric of. Of everything, you know?

[00:16:02] Julie: Yeah. [00:16:03] I feel that fabric that you’re talking about when I get into meditation and I do a oneness meditation where I feel it very [00:16:12] much. Uh, so I don’t believe all people are feelers, but I feel a lot when I’m in meditation and I feel a lot out in my [00:16:21] ORIC field, which I think is interesting ’cause as scientists are looking for consciousness, what they found is that they can’t find it all within the, the brain, you know, because it’s [00:16:30] out.

[00:16:30] Side of us as well. Yes. And so when I get into this oneness meditation, I totally get what you mean because it’s as if you’re one [00:16:39] with all that is and all that is is one with you and there really isn’t any as much feeling into the [00:16:48] physical body as much as just, I love the word fabric. I never thought about it, but it’s so true.

[00:16:56] Henry Shukman: Just [00:16:57] describing that beautifully. I know that very well. Whether. Like the boundary between the imaginary boundary that I sort of think I know between me. [00:17:06] And everything else, me and the world that just can sort of disappear.

[00:17:10] Yes.

[00:17:11] Henry Shukman: You know, it can dissolve, it can get blurry. It can dissolve and it [00:17:15] can disappear,

[00:17:16] Julie: you know?

[00:17:16] Yeah. I wanna talk about your experience of you’ve had suicidal [00:17:24] thoughts in the past, and did that come about after this experience or before? I’ve had suicidal thought. [00:17:33] My whole life, and I’ve talked to various different experts on this podcast about it, and somebody phrased it in a way that I’ll never forget where she said.[00:17:42]

[00:17:43] You know, once your mind has kind of opened up to this as an option where your, your consciousness is [00:17:51] just thinking about it, it’s kind of an easier brain for your easier option for your brain to kind of fall back on or default to in [00:18:00] hard times. And, uh, I don’t think that any. Everybody always understands this because not everybody’s had their brain [00:18:09] go to that place where, I mean, it’s just kind of like this endless Well, where you’re just at the very bottom of this [00:18:18] space.

[00:18:18] Uh, I wondered if you could talk about your experience with it, because not everybody has an easy awakening. Some are harder. [00:18:27]

[00:18:27] Henry Shukman: I, I couldn’t agree more. Yeah, and I mean, look at, I, I was a case of somebody who had. A, a spontaneous awakening.

[00:18:34] Yeah. And

[00:18:35] Henry Shukman: then [00:18:36] after that was when I really got hit hard.

[00:18:39] Yes.

[00:18:39] Henry Shukman: With difficult stuff.

[00:18:41] You know, a few weeks later, after that moment on the beach, I went [00:18:45] home back to Oxford in England and I was just overwhelmed by the [00:18:54] unacknowledged sorrows of my childhood.

[00:18:56] Mm. All my

[00:18:57] Henry Shukman: childhood I’d had a, it had been difficult. I’d had a skin. F condition [00:19:03] from my early childhood that I was hospitalized for sometimes, you know, from infancy.

[00:19:07] Yes. And then my parents divorced and it was a really painful, [00:19:12] messy, nasty situation.

[00:19:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:14] Henry Shukman: Um, with a, with a, with another, you know, third party. And it was, ah, it was really difficult and, and, and I [00:19:21] felt very kind of, you know, shameful and bad. And, but during my childhood, I’d really put up a [00:19:30] wall. Against all my difficult feelings.

[00:19:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:34] Henry Shukman: Because I wanted, I, I thought that it would be overwhelming and I’d, you know, [00:19:39] I had to function, I had to go to school and, you know, do my homework and be with my friends and, and in order to sort of maintain [00:19:48] what I thought I had to maintain as a kind of normal life,

[00:19:51] yeah. I

[00:19:52] Henry Shukman: had to just totally shut off all my feelings and, you know, and added to [00:19:57] which I didn’t even know who I could.

[00:19:59] Talk to my feelings about my parents were professors. They, they, they weren’t warm, cozy, you know, [00:20:06] they were totally rational too. They weren’t good with feelings, you know?

[00:20:10] Yes. Yeah.

[00:20:10] Henry Shukman: But when I got home after this opening up or this awakening [00:20:15] experience when I was 19, I had. All those walls I’d put up, they’d come down.

[00:20:21] I was wide open and I walked back [00:20:24] into, actually into my dad’s house first. And you know, within half an hour I actually got into a bath after I’d got, you know, he said, oh, go and have a bath, Henry, you’ve been [00:20:33] traveling. I’d come a long way back, you know, and I got in the bath and as I heard like the voices of my dad and stepmom downstairs and the [00:20:42] pipes whistling, you know, and, and sort of making their noises in the house.

[00:20:48] Noises sounds that I knew incredibly [00:20:51] well, you know, from my childhood. Suddenly it just reawakened all this trauma from my childhood [00:21:00] that I had not let myself feel when I was a kid. It just, and now I was wide open and it, it was, [00:21:09] it was, it was, in a way, it was a beautiful thing that I was at last open, and that’s actually, I really started crying then.

[00:21:16] Mm. You [00:21:18] know, sobbing and sobbing. But I thought it was a bad thing. Mm. I thought it was bad to be crying. I thought it was terrible to be feeling this way. [00:21:27] I thought I had lost that beautiful thing I discovered on the beach. I’d lost it. It had been taken away from me by [00:21:36] coming home, and I, I, I went into despair actually.

[00:21:39] Yeah.

[00:21:40] Henry Shukman: You know, and I. But I even that I couldn’t really acknowledge. I, I didn’t wanna be a [00:21:45] person who was feeling this way. I, I wanted to be a strong, good, healthy person. And it was, I had a lot of stigma around [00:21:54] mental health, poor mental health, and actually it, you know, and I kind of, I sort of, you know, soldiered on or whatever.

[00:22:01] I, I managed [00:22:03] to make myself get through college. It was three years. That’s what it is in the UK usually. And [00:22:12] I managed to start, you know, my life and working and, and, and I was miserable really inside all that [00:22:21] time. I mean, I kind of would, I’d do things to feel a bit better. I, I, I’d had friends and we drank too much, you know, honestly.

[00:22:29] Yeah. And, [00:22:30] and, um, I, I just tried. To navigate not feeling awful. And when you’re talking about like being at the [00:22:39] bottom of the Well,

[00:22:40] yeah,

[00:22:40] Henry Shukman: I, I totally, I had this image in my mind of like, sometimes I’m walking on what I think is [00:22:48] the ground and then all of a sudden there’s this deep ravine.

[00:22:51] Mm-hmm. And

[00:22:52] Henry Shukman: somehow I’ve dropped to the bottom of the ravine.

[00:22:54] And that land where everybody else is [00:22:57] living is way up there. And I dunno how to get back there.

[00:23:00] Mm. You

[00:23:01] Henry Shukman: know, and so I I, and it was that,

[00:23:03] Julie: well, it’s so

[00:23:04] Henry Shukman: deep. It’s [00:23:06] so deep. And that’s when I had suicidal thoughts. It became, I, I don’t think I ever, well, there was one time I actually made a plan. There was one time I actually made a plan.[00:23:15]

[00:23:15] But you know what? I, it’s, I mean, my, my path was that I just was so [00:23:24] lucky that two friends persuaded me to try meditation. Wow. And they, and, and, and I did. There was [00:23:33] this program, you know, for a week, every evening you went to get trained in it. And it was, it was a pretty popular style of meditation called transcendental meditation.

[00:23:41] Julie: Yeah, [00:23:42] I’m familiar. I’ve done it. Yeah,

[00:23:43] Henry Shukman: you’ve done it. Yeah. Yeah. Well they, you know, if they had a thing where, if you were a graduate student, which I was, um, you could. [00:23:51] You get 90% off the price.

[00:23:54] Julie: Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. I know they like do the pricing by income, like where your income is at. [00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Henry Shukman: Yes. Right. So I went and did it and I did the week course and I was desperate, you know, so I really did it.

[00:24:07] Yeah, I did it [00:24:09] twice a day, 20 minutes. Kind of for the next five years until I changed to another style of meditation. So I’m really grateful to them [00:24:18] for drilling that in. It’s every day they sort of said, do it twice a day or Don’t bother. Yes. You know, and I, I think nowadays, I, I don’t feel, I think it’s a little [00:24:27] too harsh personally.

[00:24:28] Yeah. But it, but I, I did do it and it, and it, and it, it just started and then I started doing therapy. I was, and [00:24:36] I feel, I was very lucky and I started to. Have resources for looking at all this stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, and not being overwhelmed [00:24:45] by it, and not having to deny it and pretend that I was invulnerable.

[00:24:49] I started to become able to be vulnerable.

[00:24:52] Julie: Yeah. I [00:24:54] wonder, what was the experience like of continuing to have your parents as a part of your life when they [00:25:03] don’t really understand this path or emotional getting? Emotional health and mental health? Um. Was it hard [00:25:12] to relate to them? You know, um, did you have to create some boundaries or did they become more accepting of it [00:25:21] as they watched you experience it

[00:25:24] Henry Shukman: back then?

[00:25:25] You know, back then, uh, I kind of say they were useless. [00:25:30] They, I couldn’t talk to them about anything, and it wasn’t just me.

[00:25:34] Yeah.

[00:25:34] Henry Shukman: If I try, I did try to. Yeah, and they just, they just sort of couldn’t [00:25:39] go there. It wasn’t so be that as it may, you know. Yeah. There, actually, there was a point in my kind of, [00:25:48] I think I was around 26, 27 by then, maybe 28 when I actually, I somehow, and I was in therapy and I [00:25:57] somehow felt I’ve gotta have a break from them.

[00:26:00] Mm-hmm. I’ve

[00:26:01] Henry Shukman: gotta have a break from them. And I, for about a year, I basically didn’t see [00:26:06] them. You know, and it, I imagine it must have been probably, I don’t know, my dad was, you know, busy with his new family. I dunno how much he minded, but I think [00:26:15] my mom probably did, but then she was very busy as well, so she, she’s probably okay.

[00:26:19] But for me it was just to make that kind of, [00:26:24] I, I, I know it’s not the only way of doing it, but to make that stand for myself, it was like, it helped me reclaim myself. Like I [00:26:33] matter and. I matter to me and my feelings matter and I can’t keep pretending they [00:26:42] don’t.

[00:26:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:43] Henry Shukman: And they don’t acknowledge them.

[00:26:45] They dunno how to acknowledge them. They dunno what I’m talking about. That’s okay. As long as I do

[00:26:50] Right. You

[00:26:50] Henry Shukman: know? Yeah. [00:26:51] And so it really, it really helped me to have a, a real hard boundary. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, from then, from a [00:27:00] year of that, I, I mean, I didn’t decide it would be a year. It just turned out to be about a year.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:04] Yeah.

[00:27:04] Henry Shukman: I could start seeing them more and you know, but I was still. [00:27:09] On a therapeutic path, you know? Mm-hmm. I was still in and out, different kinds of therapy that I’m really glad I’ve done all that. I’ve had great experiences with [00:27:18] different kinds of therapy, by the way, you know? Yes. And I, I value them all, you know?

[00:27:21] And, and it’s, and it’s, yeah. It’s, it’s it. Over time, I totally got to a place where. [00:27:27] I could have good relationships with both my parents on my terms.

[00:27:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:27:31] Henry Shukman: You know, and I, I’ve, I’ve, they’ve, they’ve become really good friends, you know. [00:27:36] Oh, that’s neat. My dad died 12 years ago, but you know it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

[00:27:40] Julie: I’m glad that you had that experience.

[00:27:43] Um, [00:27:45] I wanna go back to something that you said at the beginning because I think it’s so important that when you were on the beach you said [00:27:54] you had this magnificent experience. You were able in meditations to go back to it. And there’s something about [00:28:03] being in that fabric where you’re just one with all that is.

[00:28:09] Where it feels like time [00:28:12] operates differently and that I, I’ve had that same thing happen where you just have these incredible [00:28:21] moments and later in life you’re able to get into a meditative state and actually go back [00:28:30] to that moment, open it up. Deeper look at it from different angles and actually [00:28:39] even get more out of that moment in the future.

[00:28:43] So I was wondering if you could talk about that and I guess my [00:28:48] other question is like when the self dissolves and we become one with all that is, do you think that we actually perceive [00:28:57] time differently or are we like stepping out of time?

[00:29:03] Henry Shukman: That’s just beautiful. I’ll tell you, [00:29:06] I would, I would, I mean, basically I totally agree with the, what you’re, you’re saying in your question.

[00:29:12] I mean, I, I say that really what [00:29:15] I, I’ll tell you what I really believe now is like. Time is something we construct in our minds. It’s not really real. [00:29:24]

[00:29:24] Julie: Mm. So we’re stepping out of it.

[00:29:25] Henry Shukman: Yeah. We what? We are putting down the idea of it. Wow. And when we do, we find, ’cause when we find that [00:29:33] oneness that you called it, I totally agree.

[00:29:35] It doesn’t have time in it.

[00:29:37] Julie: It

[00:29:38] Henry Shukman: doesn’t. That’s why it’s, some people call it the eternal now. Yeah, because [00:29:42] ’cause it’s timeless.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:44] Henry Shukman: You know, they say in Zen actually, which I’ve also done, you know a lot of, you know, they say it’s the Beginningless [00:29:51] beginning and the endless end.

[00:29:53] Mm-hmm. It

[00:29:54] Henry Shukman: has no beginning, it has no end.

[00:29:56] That’s what this eternal now is.

[00:29:59] [00:30:00] Yes.

[00:30:00] Henry Shukman: And I think when we have those moments of presence, like you were describing, I think it’s a taste of that.

[00:30:06] Yes.

[00:30:07] Henry Shukman: You know of that. [00:30:09] No time, just this, just this, this endless moment That doesn’t have time. Yeah. It, it’s, but hey, [00:30:18] I, I wanted to just check in. Julie, did we, yeah.

[00:30:20] Did we talk enough about suicidal thoughts and do you want, is there more that we want to dig in there, or, or, or are you. [00:30:27]

[00:30:27] Julie: No, I think, I think we’re good. Yeah. No, I think it’s, um, thank you for sharing your experience. I think that a lot of times we [00:30:36] hear in spiritual cultures and, and I think that you’ve been a really great advocate, uh, away from this.

[00:30:42] You know, a lot of times people talk about spiritual [00:30:45] awakening and how blissful you feel and just how amazing you feel and, um. You know, I think there was that book after the Ecstasy Do the [00:30:54] Laundry, right? Like we have to actually come outta that blissful state. But I had the same thing happen, uh, that you did, um, just in a different way where [00:31:03] when I had a spontaneous awakening, when my dad passed, um, about six months later, everything started to [00:31:12] unravel.

[00:31:12] And what I realized in that moment is that. I was often ignoring, [00:31:21] rephrase. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like I grew up very, very religious. Right. So I, I was used to always being in a state of prayer. I [00:31:30] feel like my entire life, because I was raised by nuns, going to Catholic school, just constantly talking to God, universe, source.

[00:31:37] And [00:31:39] uh, what I realized about six months after awakening is how much. I was trying to [00:31:48] control and not really wanting to hear answers to the prayers from God, but wanting to hear the answers that I wanted to [00:31:57] hear, and that wasn’t being part of the fabric. That was me wanting to control my [00:32:06] life and be Julie.

[00:32:10] Controlling the path forward and I realized [00:32:15] that I had to release. And just allow myself to be open. And that felt [00:32:24] so scary. It, it felt like I was walking at an invisible wire high up between two tall buildings. And it felt like I was gonna [00:32:33] fall off, um, if I released control and just allowed God to direct my life.

[00:32:40] And as [00:32:42] soon as I allowed that to happen, instead of feeling fear. I started to feel a little bit more peace and then a little bit [00:32:51] more peace, and then I started to recognize, oh, when I do let. The divine control, the path [00:33:00] forward. It often works out a hell of a lot better than when I try and control it myself.

[00:33:06] And that’s when it became easier to [00:33:09] kind of throw up the reins and go, okay, then direct the way,

[00:33:13] Henry Shukman: the fact that you got it just six months later. That’s really cool. It was, [00:33:18] that’s, that’s how you’re starting to let the reality you’ve experienced sort of seep into your life and guide your life more. Yeah.

[00:33:26] [00:33:27] You know, that, that, you know, I, I, I love that. I, I feel, I feel much the same that I, you know, I, um, I mean I had, I [00:33:36] had a long, hard path of therapy and of meditation with. Two or three or four more real kind of [00:33:45] significant like awakening moments and a lot of moments of deepening mindfulness and presence and things.

[00:33:50] And it was very, it was a great, great pathway with amazing teachers. [00:33:54] But somehow I never thought that I was gonna get over some kind of hump. I was always gonna revert to some core [00:34:03] anxiety and core, sometimes mild, mildly depressed, and some core unease I thought. Because I’ve been graced with [00:34:12] these beautiful moments, you know?

[00:34:13] Yeah. And I’ve been very lucky. ’cause you know, I know not everybody gets these awakening moments and, you know, I, I wish [00:34:21] everybody did, but you know, and I know everybody can, but, but you can’t really make them happen, you know? Yeah. You can just make ourselves a bit more open to them maybe. [00:34:30] Yeah. But I still, but I kept coming back to this, you know, pretty uneasy.

[00:34:35] Personally, I thought that’s just how I’m made. I’m not, I’m not really [00:34:39] gonna make this big shift that like I could see my teachers have made, you know? And a lot of people out there seem to have made, yes, but not me. I never would. [00:34:48] And then actually I did, you know, and it wasn’t like I expected, but, but really it was a complete surrender, [00:34:57] you know?

[00:34:58] It was, and that was, that was for me, that was the key thing. Surrendering.

[00:35:03] Yeah.

[00:35:03] Henry Shukman: And, and then, and then this wave [00:35:06] of, I suppose, a kind of trust.

[00:35:08] Yeah.

[00:35:09] Henry Shukman: You know, maybe, maybe faith, but not in. I don’t, I’m not, I’m not exactly [00:35:15] religious like that. Yeah. But, but it is a kind of faith, but it’s just not, not exactly in, yeah.

[00:35:21] It’s more like you, you know, God, universe, source. It’s sort of [00:35:24] Yeah. It’s in reality. You know, the reality, the greater reality, you know, and let, letting things come.

[00:35:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:32] Henry Shukman: And I [00:35:33] do what they tell me to do. You know, the messages come, like you said. I mean, I totally get that. Yeah. And actually one of my Zen masters who, who was, who’s been [00:35:42] still a teacher of mine in Japan, an old, amazing old guy, is a very successful businessman and a very deep zen master.

[00:35:48] But he says, you know. I get the [00:35:51] email is how he puts it.

[00:35:52] Julie: Oh, I love that. Oh, it’s so true. [00:36:00] It’s so true,

[00:36:01] Henry Shukman: isn’t it? It is like that, isn’t it?

[00:36:02] Julie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and you know, that trust, it doesn’t feel comfortable at first. It [00:36:09] at least it didn’t to me. Like it, it didn’t feel easy. Um, but then you realize that.[00:36:18]

[00:36:18] Oh, when I’m trying to control, I can’t get the text message from heaven. I can’t get the email from God. I’m really [00:36:27] blocking it by wanting what I want for myself and if I step away from that, the other thing that I feel is like when you are [00:36:36] one with all that is. I, I call it the realm of all possibilities because oftentimes we just think of one or two [00:36:45] options in front of us and don’t see that there’s a vast array of just infinite options available to us.

[00:36:53] [00:36:54] Um, but that’s what I started to notice that God sees for us is that. When you’re trying control and you’re not trusting, [00:37:03] you’re just praying for one of two things and not seeing that there’s a better way. Um, there’s a show called 1883 and [00:37:12] 1923, and I’m not sure which one it’s in, but in there the narrator says, God never says no to us.

[00:37:20] [00:37:21] God. I always says either, yes. Um, not yet. Or I have something better in mind. And that really [00:37:30] struck me because that I have something better in mind, is that realm of all possibilities. Henry, you might have the answer [00:37:39] to this and, and maybe you don’t, but maybe you could point us in the right direction. Um, as I was, uh, looking at your work, um, one of the [00:37:48] questions that kind of came to mind is as your parents are both professors, have you ever looked at or thought about.

[00:37:55] When your brain [00:37:57] awakens what’s actually happening inside the physical brain, is it just a shift in brain chemistry? Is it, [00:38:06] um, something permanent that we’re tapping into like a vibration and that once we tap into that vibration, it might be in the [00:38:15] background, but it can never truly be away from us?

[00:38:19] Henry Shukman: I think one thing about it is.

[00:38:22] The, there are these networks [00:38:24] along the midline of the brain, kind of down the middle of the brain, that, that do a lot of narrative stories about me.

[00:38:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:38:32] Henry Shukman: For, [00:38:33] for all of us, you know, when we’re self-referential thinking

[00:38:37] Yeah. You know,

[00:38:37] Henry Shukman: those midline networks are firing and when we [00:38:42] discover, when we’re resting in infinite oneness, they’re silent.

[00:38:49] Those midline networks that are [00:38:51] doing narratives about the self are silent. Wow. That’s, that’s something I’ve heard. Then there’s the whole thing I think about like theater waves, [00:39:00] I think.

[00:39:00] Julie: Yeah. Beta Feder. Yeah,

[00:39:02] Henry Shukman: exactly. Very peaceful waves. Brain wave. The whole brain gets coordinated. Mm-hmm. Said of lots of [00:39:09] different jangly stuff going on.

[00:39:10] Single pulse of a, of the waves going as if on a still day, right across the ocean, a swell is [00:39:18] traveling. I mean, I dunno if it’s like this, I’m imagining. Yes, yes. Very peaceful brain, you know. Then there’s another thing I’ve heard, which is that, um, [00:39:27] somehow, you know, it gets. The, the, the, the, the connectivity within the brain gets much [00:39:36] greater.

[00:39:36] Like all regions are connecting with each other.

[00:39:40] Julie: Mm, I’ve, I’ve heard

[00:39:40] Henry Shukman: that. You know, I, I didn’t,

[00:39:42] Julie: you know, spirit does something for me when I hear [00:39:45] something that they want me to know more about. I see ’em circle it or highlight it. There’s, there’s a lot there. It’s all connected, which would make so much [00:39:54] sense because if we’re feeling one with all that is, uh, is it activating just.

[00:39:59] All of the neural networks within us. [00:40:03]

[00:40:03] Henry Shukman: It might be, I’ll tell you, there’s a, there’s some people, you know, a ton of research has been done on mindfulness meditation.

[00:40:11] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:11] Henry Shukman: [00:40:12] Thousands and thousands of studies and, and, um, and a few have been done on oneness meditations.

[00:40:20] Mm.

[00:40:20] Henry Shukman: And there’s [00:40:21] a, there’s a few universities around the world that are interested in that now, but it’s very difficult research to do because, you know, you, you need.

[00:40:29] [00:40:30] Enough meditators who kind of know how to get into that state.

[00:40:34] Yes. In order to do

[00:40:35] Henry Shukman: some studies. And there’s one study at the, that did some research, [00:40:39] uh, with a group of, I think they had like 34 or something, meditators around the world. Who could do that kind of meditation. Mm-hmm. And they compared them with [00:40:48] another group of meditations who were just doing mindfulness meditation, and the effects were just off the charts.

[00:40:54] How much more impactful it was. Yeah. [00:40:57] Because they’re, they’re getting, they’re getting, they would be, you know, they’re getting a sense that they’re connected with everything and they’d, they’d be saying, oh my gosh, it’s so beautiful and, you know. [00:41:06] Everything’s here somehow and, you know, nothing’s missing.

[00:41:10] And, and, you know, and, and they, and they give them like these, these questionnaires, you [00:41:15] know, to rate, rate it on these different scores, that meditation, how impactful was it? And this level, and this way, this way, this way. And, you know, and, [00:41:24] and they’re all like very, very high scores with the mindfulness stuff.

[00:41:28] It’s just much more, yeah, I, I felt I could see that I was thinking more [00:41:33] clearly. I recognized that the thoughts weren’t me. That they were just floating through and that was very nice. But it’s nothing like, the impact of

[00:41:41] Julie: [00:41:42] that puts a lot together for me because that’s how I teach people is the oneness meditation.

[00:41:48] And, uh, I wrote my first book [00:41:51] on this that, um, it’s really by getting into that state of oneness with all that is connecting to this [00:42:00] realm of all possibilities that you can hear. Here you can see all possibilities. You can feel all possibilities. And [00:42:09] that is a consciousness greater than us or us being connected to something greater, um, [00:42:18] that really is looking out for us, that knows where we can go in the future.

[00:42:23] And that’s how I believe that we can hear, [00:42:27] um, from the other side.

[00:42:30] Henry Shukman: Yes. You know, I can totally relate to. The, the way you’re describing it and the experience you’re [00:42:36] describing, I probably, you know, I’m not so, like I said, a sort of, I don’t know about, you know, the religious world, you know? Oh, yeah.

[00:42:44] Julie: [00:42:45] I, I’m spiritual, not religious these days.

[00:42:46] Yes.

[00:42:47] Henry Shukman: Okay. Cool, cool, cool. Yes, but I feel, I feel that there’s just, you know, the, the, this greater [00:42:54] reality that we find mm-hmm. In oneness, and by the way. There’s also the term emptiness, which is,

[00:43:00] yeah,

[00:43:00] Henry Shukman: almost the same thing. It sounds different, [00:43:03] but it’s actually, it’s actually really talking about the same experience ’cause it’s empty of boundaries.

[00:43:09] Julie: Have you ever watched The Good Place? No. [00:43:12] Oh, you would love it. Um, it’s the show. You have to watch it from the very first episode to understand what’s happening, but, um, they show it [00:43:21] kind of in a way that I see it when I’m doing my readings. So, uh, I believe that there’s here in this. Physical realm, right?

[00:43:28] Yeah. And if you talk to people who had near [00:43:30] death experiences, uh, they see things on the other side. And I believe, you know, spirit always kinda jokes like you [00:43:39] humans think that this is the only physical reality. How could that be? You know, if we have these people, scientists here who can think of these great [00:43:48] inventions, you know.

[00:43:49] On Earth. We have so much more on the other side, but there’s a third place that I would always tap into and [00:43:57] that is that place of just oneness with all that is it. It’s really beyond what people think of as [00:44:06] heaven and, um, it is that place of emptiness. And when I would feel emptiness, uh, and tune into it, I would say to God.[00:44:15]

[00:44:15] I, I never wanna go to that place because I never wanna be away from my child and from my husband and my friends [00:44:24] and my mom and my family. Um, and I would hear back, oh, Julie, it’s not, um, a lack of anything. It’s [00:44:33] where you are. All experiences all at once. You are always connected with everything all, all [00:44:42] at once.

[00:44:42] It’s something that I don’t know that our brains can totally understand in our form right [00:44:51] now.

[00:44:51] Henry Shukman: Yeah. Emptiness is full of everything.

[00:44:54] Julie: Yes.

[00:44:54] Henry Shukman: Yeah. Yeah. It really is. And it, and so it’s a bad word. Yeah. Really. But it’s, it’s [00:45:00] kind of not totally bad because it, it means, yeah. Like it’s, it’s empty of borders, empty of separation, empty of ideas.[00:45:09]

[00:45:09] Yeah.

[00:45:09] Henry Shukman: And then you. Pr there’s this vast infinite presence of all of all. Uh, so it’s so beautiful. Yeah. I’m so [00:45:18] happy to hear you talking about it, you know? Yeah. It makes me feel good just hearing you talk about it. ’cause I, I, I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. And I think it’s like, [00:45:27] I also think, um, it’s never, uh, it’s, uh, how do I put this?

[00:45:34] It’s never really absent. [00:45:36]

[00:45:36] Hmm.

[00:45:37] Henry Shukman: Right. You know, we, we may not feel it at a certain time of course, but actually it’s never really absent.

[00:45:43] Julie: A hundred percent. Yeah. Because you [00:45:45] can always put your attention, your awareness on it. And you’re right back there. You’re right back in that state of being.

[00:45:52] Henry Shukman: Exactly.

[00:45:52] Exactly. Yeah. And [00:45:54] that the fact that you can do that means it’s really open for you.

[00:45:58] Julie: You know, today it feels like a light switch, you know? Um, I’m [00:46:03] 43. Uh, we have a, a large network of friends and you know, if my husband and I are to go out, I kind of turn it [00:46:12] off and I go be a human and I just. Go enjoy being and being present with friends and my surroundings.

[00:46:20] Um, [00:46:21] and then if I wanted to feel it or activate it, just turn the light switch on and, and it’s right there.

[00:46:27] Henry Shukman: Now do you do, I don’t actually know. I wish I knew a bit [00:46:30] more about what you do, but do you offer, I mean, do you, you, do you do readings with people? Do you? I do. And then you switch it on and you can Yeah.

[00:46:37] Help them in deeper ways than [00:46:39] you could ever think your way through.

[00:46:40] Julie: Yes, yes. A woman that I was across from at work in the meeting, she’s like, you have to figure this out. Like you have to figure [00:46:48] out how. And so I went and studied with just, uh, world renowned mediums and learned how to make that connection.

[00:46:55] But it’s really [00:46:57] through oneness. Um, the oneness is like tuning the radio dial to the right station where you can hear the [00:47:06] voice of the broadcaster clearly.

[00:47:09] Henry Shukman: Mm-hmm. Oh, that’s fantastic. Beautiful. Did you, did you get, I mean, would you [00:47:15] ever have sort of dialogues with, with some, with him, for example? With him?

[00:47:19] Yeah.

[00:47:19] Julie: Oh yeah. Still to this day too, he comes through with the coolest things. I can sit [00:47:24] down and just channel out what he wants me to say. Um, and I also just let him surprise me with different signs, uh, every. [00:47:33] August 5th is the anniversary of the day that he passed, and actually just coming up August 5th.

[00:47:41] In a couple months [00:47:42] here is going to be 10 years since he passed, and um, he always brings in a new movie every single time. [00:47:51] Um, I tell him, I don’t wanna remember, I don’t wanna know that it’s coming up. Just remind me on the date. It’s the day that you passed. And I always feel called to like turn on a movie.[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] One time it was Field of Dreams. One time, uh, you know, he had me turn on a rival. Um, but always just a movie. That kind of brings you [00:48:09] back to that connectedness of the intuition, which, which I believe is really them communicating with us.

[00:48:16] Henry Shukman: Right, right, right. By the [00:48:18] way, isn’t Arrival a great movie? Oh my

[00:48:20] Julie: God, it’s the best.

[00:48:21] Because, you know, I was thinking about it when you were talking about time and just how time doesn’t [00:48:27] exist over there. Uh, it, it doesn’t here either. We just don’t realize. Um,

[00:48:34] Henry Shukman: well, hey, maybe this is [00:48:36] interesting. I know, but, and a lot of the, I did this whole period of training in Zen. Yeah. Where you, they work with what they call [00:48:45] koans.

[00:48:45] Julie: What’s that?

[00:48:46] Henry Shukman: A koan is a little phrase that doesn’t seem to make sense. Ooh. It’s like, like, what is the sound of one hand? Or that [00:48:54] it, you know, the sound of two hands clapping, but what is the sound of one hand? Ooh, that’s, that’s one. Another one is like, um, [00:49:03] the whole earth is medicine. Mm. And I mean there’s lots and lots and lots of

[00:49:09] Julie: them.

[00:49:09] Oh my gosh. Each one of those that you just said just brings [00:49:12] a total peace. Like this wave of peace.

[00:49:15] Henry Shukman: Well, exactly. ’cause they are speaking from the world of oneness. [00:49:21] And I think that arrival is the best. It is. It’s the best movie I’ve ever seen. [00:49:30] Showing what koan training is like.

[00:49:33] Julie: Mm. The way those,

[00:49:34] Henry Shukman: the, the way the, the, the creatures, the heta pods.

[00:49:37] Julie: Yeah. You know,

[00:49:37] Henry Shukman: they spray the [00:49:39] ink circles.

[00:49:39] Julie: Yes. And then they can read it

[00:49:41] Henry Shukman: and then they Yeah, exactly. They can, they can, that’s their way of speaking or writing, you know, and she gets, starts to understand [00:49:48] it, but she can’t understand it without changing. Her whole, her whole mentality has to change. Her whole understanding of time and [00:49:57] space has to change in order to understand what they’re saying.

[00:49:59] That’s like Koans. Each koan is like one of those messages,

[00:50:03] Julie: Ooh, from

[00:50:03] Henry Shukman: outside of time and space, [00:50:06]

[00:50:06] Julie: I feel like I could just sit there and meditate on one a year.

[00:50:10] Henry Shukman: That’s what some people do. Yeah. Some people just, that’s, they, they, they take it [00:50:15] into their sitting. Some people do, you know, you can do a lot of them.

[00:50:18] You know, I, I did a whole training where probably it was like usually about one a [00:50:24] week with a teacher helping me. And, you know, on our app actually, that we have, we have some of them. What,

[00:50:29] Julie: tell everybody about your app, this is so cool. You have [00:50:33] 75,000 people using this meditation app.

[00:50:36] Henry Shukman: Well, we are, we are really lucky.

[00:50:38] It’s, it’s called The Way and it’s, you know, we. You know, there’s [00:50:42] 3000 meditation apps.

[00:50:44] Yes.

[00:50:45] Henry Shukman: And we decided to do one anyway. And we think ours does something that none of the [00:50:51] others do, which is mostly they wanna provide many, many options, more and more choice. I. Like Netflix, you know, like [00:51:00] the more choice, the better, you know, and the ’cause there’ll be more for more people.

[00:51:04] And we decided to do exactly the opposite.

[00:51:07] Mm,

[00:51:08] Henry Shukman: no [00:51:09] choice. You have a pathway and every you, you know, and you can’t jump ahead. You have to do each meditation before you can [00:51:18] do the next one. And it’s a three year pathway. And I mean, actually talking about, you know. How decisions and choices and possibilities [00:51:27] come, it all came to me while meditating.

[00:51:29] Mm-hmm. You know, that, and so did that book, original Love and, and actually this, this meditation app is [00:51:36] like a, is actually like leading somebody through the pathway that the book is about, but you know, you’re actually doing it, you’re like day by day [00:51:45] meditations. So we’re just really, it’s only been out just over a year and we’re just so happy that it’s actually.

[00:51:52] People are finding it [00:51:54] really, really helpful ’cause Oh,

[00:51:55] Julie: I’d love to try it.

[00:51:57] Henry Shukman: Well, we’d love to get you a, a free subscription if you’d like. We’ll, we, we, we can figure that out after. Yeah.

[00:52:02] Julie: I [00:52:03] love that. Oh, thank you Henry. Oh my goodness. You are just such an incredible soul. I’m just. So blessed that we got to [00:52:12] spend this time together.

[00:52:13] Um, your new book, well your book came out last year, the hard copy, but the, um, paperback is coming out [00:52:21] July 9th, original Love. Tell everybody where they can find that, the app and you.

[00:52:27] Henry Shukman: Okay. Well, the book is a, you know, all [00:52:30] reputable bookstores. Um, the app is on the app store and Google Play for Android. And, [00:52:39] um.

[00:52:39] And I am, I can be found at um, henry shipman.com.

[00:52:43] Julie: Amazing. Yeah. Ah, Henry, you’re just such a beautiful soul. Thank you so much for [00:52:48] spending your time with us today.

[00:52:49] Henry Shukman: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s been absolutely beautiful experience for me. Thank you so much, Julie.

[00:52:54] Julie: Good. You too. You’re a

[00:52:55] Henry Shukman: very wonderful person as well.

[00:52:56] I’m very [00:52:57] grateful for time with you.

[00:52:58] Julie: Thank you.