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The Empty Path: Where Zen Meets Angel Guidance, with Billy Wynne

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In this episode, I welcome Billy Wynne, author of The Empty Path, to explore how Zen Buddhism’s “art of lessening” cultivates radical presence—even amid global suffering. Billy shares his journey from alcoholism to sobriety through meditation, how forgiveness “softens edges” without demanding reconciliation, and why joy is our greatest spiritual activism. We dive into masculine spirituality, the neuroscience of alcohol, and practical meditations to access ORIC-field radiance or grounded safety. Your angels guided you here: if you’re craving deeper peace or partnership alignment, join my Sacred Women’s Circles or Couples Retreat (theangelmedium.com). Embrace your wholeness now.


TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW


00:00 Julie’s Angel Message & Retreat Invitations
02:00 Introducing Billy Wynne & “The Empty Path”
03:02 Practicing “Lessening” in Daily Life
04:58 Managing Overwhelm & Divine Timing
06:33 Embracing “Not Knowing” as Spiritual Practice
08:00 Buddhism’s View on Global Suffering & Sensitivity
10:48 Allowing Heartbreak Without Burnout
12:00 Do Buddhists Believe in Angels/Beings?
15:00 Billy’s Zen Journey & Sangha Community
17:48 Meditation’s Transformative Sensations (Sun-like Radiance)
20:00 TM vs. Zen: Grounded vs. Expansive Energy
23:48 Holding Meditative States in Daily Life
26:00 Men’s Spirituality & Partner Dynamics
29:30 Sobriety, Neuroscience & Social Shifts
34:00 Forgiveness as an Ongoing Practice
38:00 Wholeness Amidst Global Suffering
44:00 Guilt vs. Contribution: Energetic Responsibility
49:00 Joy as Activism
51:00 Billy’s Resources & Julie’s Closing Offer


TRANSCRIPT

Julie: [00:00:00] Beautiful souls. Before we dive into today’s podcast, your angels want you to know that they are with you right now. Yes, right now they’ve guided you here because they want you to feel their presence, their love. I. Mm. And they’re unwavering support of you. They’re reminding you today of this truth. You are ready.

You’re ready for joy. You’re ready for deeper connection. You’re ready to receive everything that you’ve been praying for. Friends, you have done so much for others. Your angels say that it’s now time for you to say yes. To your own soul, to deepen your connection to yourself, to your angels, and your own divine purpose.

Friends, this summer, I’m inviting you to two life-changing opportunities. We’ve got the couples retreat on July 25th. Through 27th in [00:01:00] Oakbrook, Illinois. This is a sacred weekend all about reconnection with yourself, with your partner, and the vision you share for your future. Together, you’re gonna receive the exact toolbox, Blake and I have.

Built and still use every day to nurture a deep, spiritual and emotional connection. You’ll leave this retreat feeling clear, aligned, and empowered to grow together with love and purpose guiding every step. We’ve also got the Sacred Women circles. These are new groups that I’m forming. They’re very small, intimate groups of about eight women who gather monthly.

Online or in person for about two to two and a half hours of soul, deep connection, healing, and divine sisterhood. If you’ve been craving true spiritual community and a space to be fully seen, this is for you. Your [00:02:00] angels are celebrating you today. They’re cheerleading you. They’re whispering this right now is your time.

To soften, to rise, and to align with the life you were made for. So take a breath, tune in, and let’s begin. Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening Podcast. I’m your host and author, Julie Janis, and today we’re here with Billy Wynn. He’s the author of The Empty Path. Welcome Billy.

Thank you for being here.

Billy Wynne: Thanks so much having me. I really appreciate it.

Julie: Yeah. And whereabouts are you in the world?

Billy Wynne: I am in Denver, Colorado.

Julie: You have a book, the new book, the Empty Path, and the subtitle for the book is Finding Fulfillment Through the Radical Art of Lessoning. I think this is so fascinating.

How do we practice the art of lessening in our everyday lives and [00:03:00] practical terms?

Billy Wynne: Sure. So I think the key is, um, paying attention to what’s here. So the art of lessening is not about turning away from, um, what we’re experiencing from our emotions, from our memories and so forth. It’s really about turning toward them and maybe, um, cultivating a little bit of patience to stay with those experiences just as they are, um, which has a way of settling our experience with them so that we, um, can see them more clearly and maybe react to them a little bit more.

Uh, in a kind of open hearted way.

Julie: So when something happens in life, we, we just kind of are always swimming through these different energies, different stuff is coming at us, different stuff we’re experiencing. Um, and oftentimes our nervous system can get overwhelmed, um, can just feel like we’re on overload.

Um, especially kind of in [00:04:00] this day and age right now. How do you sit with that? Uh, especially when sometimes the questions that we want answered because I’m a person who just wants to fix things, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, let’s just find, um, the solution. Work on it, fix it, and move forward. But the angels have been bringing through this message that sometimes we can’t understand everything.

Like in order to move forward, sometimes healing comes without understanding. Maybe these are two separate questions, but how do you, when you’re really overwhelmed and just your body is really in the thick of your nervous system? Being flustered. How do you stick with it? Also, when do you need understanding in order to find healing?

Billy Wynne: A couple of tools and we [00:05:00] all go there, right? We all get agitated, we all get, you know, triggered as a popular word. We all get into a place where we are. You know, prone to reactivity and a couple of different, I mean, number one, we have our breath as an ally and as a support through our life experience.

And this is where trying to establish a meditation practice can be helpful because we can train ourselves to attune to our breath and then when we get in those circumstances, we, we have that available to us as a way to sort of calm ourselves back down and recalibrate our nervous system. But another thing is to, again.

Uh, cultivating an awareness of what’s really present. So, and when we can do that, then, then the thing that is irritating us, or triggering us, or frustrating us or whatever it is, is not the only thing, you know. And, and even even that thing, whether it’s a coworker or an email or a, you know. Uh, furniture I just stubbed my toe on or whatever it is, you know, is [00:06:00] more than, than, than what my instantaneous reaction to it, you know, might suggest.

So again, this is the kind of thing that, that it helps to cultivate an ongoing basis so it is accessible in these frustrated moments where we have a harder time, you know, sort of coming forth as the person that we prefer to be. Um, and your, your second question is very interesting. ’cause I was actually in a group meditation this morning where, which I wasn’t leading, which is kind of nice.

And their, their, uh, focus was on not knowing. Um, which there’s a, there’s a kind of strong tradition in, in meditation and a Buddhism around getting comfortable with the fact that very often we don’t know, at least we don’t know the whole. Story of whatever it is that we’re focusing on. I think that leaning into that and realizing there’s a lot of beauty there.

You don’t have to know, right? You don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t have to have an instantaneous solution to life’s many difficult challenges, right? So, um, we can be easier with the fact that we don’t know and that that actually [00:07:00] can tap us into a tremendous amount of creativity. Learning, growing, you know, and it’s, it’s not a conclusion, right?

It’s an opening to a new, a new story that we can write with that not knowing mine. So it can be very helpful.

Julie: You know, one of the other things that I just wanted to kind of tune into with you is I think that there’s just so much happening within the world, and I don’t know if within Buddhism texts or teachings they talk about.

Is there a thing where they talk about some people are more highly sensitive or empathic than others? I like that your, your work on lessening isn’t just like lessening stuff, you know? It’s lessening the inner clutter that we all have within, with spirituality and, and just EMPAs and the world that we live in.

So much suffering happening right now. I often hear my angel saying, look. Recently in meditation, don’t focus as [00:08:00] much on the bigger picture. Focus in more on your day and like what you can do next. Mm-hmm. Even if you just have to focus in on like the next minute or the next task in front of you. Mm-hmm.

Um, kinda lessening the scope mm-hmm. Of the picture itself. Mm-hmm. Not in a way that bypasses it. We know that they’re suffering. We know that there’s a lot happening, but. I can’t go out and create world peace mm-hmm. By snapping my fingers. Mm-hmm. All that’s available to me is to do the very next thing that’s in front of me.

Um, and to hope that other people are doing their part or their work as well. Well,

Billy Wynne: my experience, by the way, you know, I have, I have my own kind of zen Buddhist, you know, experience and. I cannot speak on behalf of Buddhism and I, you Yeah, I continue to study it. There’s so much to it. But, um, I would say that first of all, the tradition of Buddism at 2,500 years old has, has gone through eras of extreme [00:09:00] discord, um, oppression of, you know, Buddhist practice, um, war, you know, kind of the, the whole, the whole thing.

So, um, it is, it, it has a, a track record. You know, with the ups and downs of the world. I think another thing that it would, would tell us is that everybody is unique, right? Yeah. Everybody comes forth in a unique way and everybody’s awareness of and sensitivity to different, um, developments in the world is gonna be different, you know?

Mm-hmm. And, um, and our own response to developments in the world is gonna change right over time, moment to moment, mindset to mindset. Um, so I think all that is important to keep in mind so that, you know, we can, yeah, we can, we can train ourselves to open and close our aperture to the degree it serves us, right?

So it may be that all I can focus on is making myself lunch right now, right? And that’s my, that is what I need to focus on, and that, that’s the, the extent of my, you know, zone of influence at the moment. And there’s gonna be other times where hopefully I can open my heart to the [00:10:00] suffering, you know, and the joy and beauty, but also, yes, the profound suffering and tragedy.

In the world and, you know, let it in. I mean, I think I, you know, I, I opened the, I don’t usually do this. I, I, I tried, frankly, as a practice, especially recently, not to pay too close of attention to the news. And I looked at the, the cover of, of popular newspaper on a Sunday morning, and there was a really, really horrific, tragic picture there.

And I, I think there is, discernment is so important, but it, it, it is important to allow our hearts to be broken. You know, I think it is important to, to feel that from time to time, you know, right. There’s, there’s time for that and there’s time for strength and there’s time for moving ahead with the task before us and so forth.

But all of that can be informed by our open-heartedness to the profound suffering, you know, of the world, our own, but also I. You know, the many, many beings around us. Um, so

Julie: allow it to move us.

Billy Wynne: Yeah.

Julie: And then this question came up too. I’m not going in order here as a good journalist would, but in [00:11:00] Buddhism I’ve heard that there are beings not exactly angels or called angels, but like angels.

Is that true?

Billy Wynne: Yeah, so, so the first thing to share about Buddhism is that it is, as you know, diverse and multifaceted in its beliefs and practices in texts as Christianity, any other major world of religion. And I, I didn’t know that, you know, I kinda was just sort of naively, didn’t think that before I.

Became a Buddhist and started really studying it. There are

Julie: different like sex, like Oh yes. Oh, like Protestant nomination?

Billy Wynne: Yes, exactly. Catholic, Catholic, Protestant. You know, everything from like,

Julie: wow.

Billy Wynne: Evangelical fundamentalist to Unitarian. You know what, like the whole. Array and everything in between. And you know, the different prioritization of different texts and beliefs is all there also in, in Buddhism.

Yeah. So it’s not monolithic. It is, it is very diverse. And, and again, I, I cannot speak for any of it really. I can just tell you about my own Zen Buddhist, but I will try to answer your question. And the answer is that, you know, in classical [00:12:00] Buddhism and what, what, what at least many of us call classical Buddhism, which is the, the poly text, the original like hin your Indian.

Um, you know, what is now India, you know, uh, region Buddhism practice in text of 2000 to 2,500 years ago. There, there was belief in, you know, I’ll just call it deities, you know, supernatural beings, right? Who have some involvement or influence over the, the activity of the world. And there, and in the Terra Vata tradition, which is the, the closest thing we have to a surviving.

Um, practice of, of that original classical Buddhism, and they, they continue to read the original poly text, et cetera. A lot of Tara Vain Buddhists maintain those beliefs in, I’ll just call them supernatural beings. But, you know, there’s lots and lots of different ways to. Describe it and you know, encounter it and so forth.

Less so in what we call maana Buddhism, which is loosely akin to Protestantism reform. Judaism like a more modernish, but I mean by modern, it started to evolve in like two or 300 [00:13:00] ad. So I mean it’s really old, but it’s newer than classical Buddhism. And as that evolved and definitely as it came to the US really in the mid 20th century, primarily in the form of insight or vipasana.

Buddhism and Zen Buddhism that, um, the sort of prioritization of those types of beliefs in supernatural being, you know, diminished. It’s still there in many forms in the US but, but a distinct minority, I would say of American Buddhist. Um, you know, um, prioritize their, their, um, you know, encounters and worship of, and, and, and thinking about.

Those types of beings.

Julie: How did you get into Buddhism yourself?

Billy Wynne: Sure. So it started in high school. Um, so I was raised Christian and, um, different, I went through different Christian churches when I was, uh, growing up and for a variety of reasons and including in my book I talk about basically the dissolution of my family and my life and my adolescent years.

And so I [00:14:00] was definitely kind of in a seeking wandering phase in high school. And I think that the first, I’m gonna call it. Text I read was the Dao of Poo. Um, yes. Right. So, and I, I, I, a lot about Taoism, um, spoke to me at the time and I also, um, started to read about Buddhism and, uh, read Herman Hess, Shar, like in late high school, early college age.

And then I, I minored in religion and focused on eastern religions when I was in. College and so kind of got the deeper dive into, um, especially Chinese, so Buddhism, Confucianism, and Daoism. And then it just stuck with me over time. And then it was about 10 years ago where I was really ready to turn, you know, just turn the page.

And some of that had to do with, um, I also talk about this in my book, like my parenting at that time and, and anger and I, I was going to therapy for anger management and so I was starting to dabble in meditation. And part of it was I read this wonderful book, um, [00:15:00] mindfulness in Plain English by bte Gun Ratana.

Um, and I loved it. I started practicing it and, and I saw that he’s a Buddhist, you know, and I was like, a lot of these books that are really secular in nature are written by people who are, and I was like, well, I wanna know about that thing. You know, I want kind of look behind the curtain and go deep on that side of it.

And long story. Medium length. I, I then encountered the Zen Center of Denver. I, I, I looked for different Buddhist sangha communities in the Denver area and, um, through really some happenstance, crossed paths with the Zen Center of Denver. Joined them for a Friday morning meditation session, and just immediately was like, this is what I have been looking for.

I mean, it just, I’ve, I’ve not looked back since. Mm-hmm. And I’ve been, yeah, you know, very, very committed to that path. Ever since then.

Julie: So when you found that center, for people who do, don’t understand or haven’t experienced that before, how is that different from like church on Sunday mornings? Yeah. Is it some, a place that you go to?

Is [00:16:00] it a facility? Is it kind of like a spiritual church in and of itself?

Billy Wynne: Yeah.

Julie: Describe it for us.

Billy Wynne: Yeah. I love that question because I think a lot of people, and I had a book event recently where somebody asked a similar question and it’s like they, they, they’re like. They thought they couldn’t be a Buddhist in America, right?

They thought you had to be in Asia, or they thought, you know, you have to be in a monastery in Tibet or something and No, no, you, there are plenty of Buddhist communities. Um, and the short answer is it’s not too different. I mean, there’s lots of, yeah, important differences, but it’s not too different from a church model.

So if the center of Denver, Denver, for example, and most. Larger US cities are gonna have a Zen center. They’re probably gonna have a, you know, multiple, you know, Buddhist, um, uh, communities that have brick and mortar buildings where you can go and, um, you know, smaller areas, you’re probably gonna be thinking more remote or, you know, or, or finding a group of people that you can practice with.

’cause it is, we can come back to that, but it’s, it is essential, I think, to have a community of people that you’re practicing with. But [00:17:00] anyway, so the Zen Center of Denver, you know, a key difference is that. Zen in particular. I mean, zen is essentially means meditation in Japanese. Not a lot of people know that.

Mm-hmm. But so meditation is the, is kind of the name of the game. Yeah. In the century. So, so, uh, we have meditation sessions throughout the week. Um, I’m going tonight. I’ll go Thursday morning. And then on Sunday morning we will meditate, but we’ll also have like a talk by one of the teachers, or we’ll do a ceremony that includes some chanting and kind of like singing.

So, you know, it’s a Sunday morning thing. And, um, so the, the pattern of it is not too far afield of a, a Christian Church, for example. Um, but you know, the content is, is a good bit different, but the, the sort of, um, schedule is comparable.

Julie: When my dad first passed away in 2015, I went to a reader and she taught me a meditation that I could do, and it opened me up in a way where I could feel something that I never felt before.

And I know that not all [00:18:00] people are feelers. Some people don’t have that kind of feeling reset, kinda intuition. But it felt like my crown was open. It felt like I could feel into my ORIC field. It felt like from my heart center, like I was a mini sun that was just radiating out like love to everyone and everything.

And I wondered, you know, because you’ve done so much research, um, with your studies, have you found that too? And do you experience that yourself when you’re in meditation, that you feel something shift within you feel different?

Billy Wynne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great, great question. Thank you. I, and really, it’s the reason that I’ve been meditating so long and I just meditate more and more as I go.

And I, and I tell this to people, uh, I, I teach a lot of meditation classes and I, you know, people ask me about starting a meditation practice. And, um, what I tell them is that. A key reason that people are [00:19:00] able to stick with it is because if you give it an earnest shot, you know, early on in, in the practice, you will have a moment.

It might be two seconds, you know, it might be very brief, you, but this is, this is what happened for me and I think this is typical of people who go down the meditation path is. I had a, a, you know, very brief encounter with a sense of peace that I had never had before. Mm-hmm. And it’s that, it’s that, and you’re like, oh, like this is what people are talking about.

You know, this is why meditation is such a, a thing, is because of this feeling of peace and ease that. I don’t get normally elsewhere. Yeah. Um, so, so, absolutely. And that, that, the beautiful thing is that, that experience, that feeling can grow and deepen and become more common, you know, in meditation practice as you go along, it’s just like going to the gym.

It’s like the first day you’re, you could barely lift the bar, and then a year later you got the big, you know. What you know, it, it gets easier and stronger with practice.

Julie: Early on when I started getting [00:20:00] into more spirituality and getting certified in different things, I really wanted to talk about this a lot with my husband ’cause we’re so close and, uh, he didn’t understand a lot because he’s not a deeply.

Or he wasn’t back then, a deeply spiritual person. And I just kept hearing every time I would pray on it, let us bring it to him in his own way. Mm-hmm. And I guess that’s another question for you. It’s different for men than women sometimes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like how you come to your own spiritual center in your own spiritual practice.

He did end up finding, uh, he was watching a documentary on The Beatles, who he loves. And found that they traveled to India. Yes. Yes. And they found transcendental me meditation. So he and I both went and we tried tm. Mm-hmm. And you kind of get your own, um, mantra mm-hmm. That you say to yourself. And with that meditation, I felt very different from the first meditation that mm-hmm.

That we talked about. Because [00:21:00] with this. It felt like a different energy almost, that if I was at the bottom of the ocean, kinda like sitting in lotus position, but that there was all of that noise outside in the world. Mm-hmm. But that I was just purely safe and kind of calm. It was more like a groundedness.

Whereas when I’m in the other meditation, I feel very floaty. Mm-hmm. And almost like I’m more out here in my ORIC field. Mm-hmm. In your research and and your experience, are there different types of meditations that kind of tune you into more your ORIC field or more ground you within?

Billy Wynne: Yes. Yes. Um, and there’s, there’s, you know, a wide array of, of meditation practices and they get more and more refined.

With time, uh, and, uh, people are, you know, kind of inventing new techniques. You know, this is not a stagnant, you know, tradition. Um, it [00:22:00] continues to evolve and. Uh, people have new insights. So, uh, the short answer is yes, and even, like, for example, I’m a, I’m a teacher in, in the insight meditation tradition, and we have in my, well, my book is one Guided Meditation per chapter 10 chapters.

The, you know, there’s, there’s 10 different meditations there. One is a meta, you know, loving kindness meditation, one mindfulness of breath. Body scans, all, all those different things. And those, those different techniques will yield different types of feelings and different types of insight, different types of, you know, um, emotional experience and, and, and, you know, that’s all to the good.

And also like people will find what means something to them, right? I mean, obviously. Mm-hmm. So, so that’s one reason that I think it’s great that there’s the such a menu. Yeah, a meditation practices. ’cause you’re like, well, you know, for example, I can’t sit, well there’s walking meditation. If you’re like, I have a really hard time sitting still, or, you know, or if you like, have trouble going to sleep, well, a body scan while you’re laying down can be very effective for that, that situation.

So, [00:23:00] um, yes is, is the answer. Uh, and um, you know, I think it’s all for the good.

Julie: Do you find too, and I don’t know how to describe this, other than if I can just tune myself in every morning, you know, for a minute. 10 minutes, whatever I have, um, I can come back to that frequency more and more. Just that radiant sun, that radiant love.

I can be in it not all day, but very often, like most of the day, I think that a lot of times people think of meditation as, okay, this is something on my to-do list. I have to sit down 20 minutes in the morning or 20 minutes before bed and just clear my mind. Do you feel like you can hold it more like your eyes are open, you’re doing work, you’re going about your day, you’re writing your book, but you’re in that vibration?

Billy Wynne: Yeah. Yeah. So, so in, in Buddhism, at least my Buddhism, um, we call it [00:24:00] practice on the mat and practice off the mat. Okay. That, so love on the mat is the dedicated meditation practice in the morning, like you said, you know, you set your timer and you do the thing and then it’s over and you go do other things.

So, and then that meditation off the mat, you know, is, or mindfulness off the mat or practice off the mat is, is everything else, right? It’s, it’s the rest of your life. And so, um, there are, you know, numerous sort of techniques and trick tricks and hacks and whatever for, for trying to re-access that, that sense of peace that you might have had while meditating.

Um, and, and also. Practice off the mat is, is, you know, the, the di the distinction between practice on the mat and practice off the mat, uh, diminishes over over time if you, if you’re committed to practicing them. And so, you know, now when you know I’m getting up off of the mat and moving into, you know, breakfast with my family or, or whatever the next thing is, it’s not like, okay, I’m done meditating and now here’s the rest of my life.

It’s like, it’s, it’s more, it is a different experience, don’t get me [00:25:00] wrong. Yeah. It’s not like the same as when I was sitting on the mat. But that, that, that, that peaceful frame of mind, right? Yeah. It, it, it grows and expands and it gets easier to access. Um, and it, it becomes less of a like, oh, that’s how I feel when I’m meditating and this is how I feel, you know, for the rest of the day.

It’s like, it’s, it, it starts to kind of, um, calibrate together.

Julie: So going back to that other question, I think one of the biggest questions that I get asked from women is like, Julie, I feel like I’m a spiritual person and I really want to be on this journey with my partner, my spouse, my husband. They’re just not totally into it.

And I find that men tend to have an easier time with meditation. Mm-hmm. Like they can understand it, they can grasp it. Mm-hmm. It’s something like real practical, they can just go sit down and do it. Mm-hmm. Um, how do you find that more men find their way to a spiritual practice?

Billy Wynne: Yeah. Ooh, that’s a great [00:26:00] question and I.

In the early days of writing my book, there was thought about making it more about this question, and particularly for other, you know, myself and for other men, and really trying to work with, you know, the problem of, of madness right now, right now. And part of that is a resistance to emotionality. It’s a resistant to sensory experience of our bodies.

It can be a resistance to spirituality, you know, really going deep with it, um, et cetera. So I say that on behalf of, of, of, of men. Um, you know, you, I think it’s also true though, and to some degree, I mean, at least at the present center of Denver, there, there’s more men than women. And I, there may be something about that in about meditation.

I, I don’t know if you know, lots and lots of women, of course also meditate. Um, I’ll tell you, my wife does not meditate on a consistent basis. She has done, you know, she, she knows about mindfulness and has some of those practices. Um, and you know, there’s part of me that’s like, it would be wonderful if she came to me, came with me to the Zen Center of [00:27:00] Denver.

And she has a couple of times, but she really, you know, it’s just not her thing and she’s not, she’s not gonna do that. Uh, so I think, let’s see, let’s try to answer your question. So first of all, I get, I’d say in chapter, um, seven if my book, it’s about love and relationships. And so the thing that’s coming to me, uh, to mind for me in my, um, you know, in hearing your question is.

This idea. So, uh, uh, in the book, I share the story of at, at our wedding, and the unitarian minister who married my wife and I used the analogy of the wedding, not as kind of the, the typical, traditional way to think of marriage. And uh, he said, you know, if you think about it, that’s very constricting. You know, it’s like, it’s tight.

Um, it’s bound, it is controlling to some degree, one hand of the other. Yeah. Um, and he said, what if we imagine marriage like this? So we’re touching, but we’re, we’re free, you know, to move and grow and evolve and, um, and explore. And, but you know, we, we [00:28:00] don’t, we don’t, you know, hopefully we don’t separate, but we, but we give each other the space to kind of find our own way, which, which, and I go deeper into this in, in that chapter, but for me, that is a truer expression of love, right?

Love says you do you and you find you, and I trust you. Right. Yeah. To figure your path out. And I, you know, if you, you know, and I’m gonna do the same, right? And you, and you know, if we love each other, then we’re both free to evolve and grow and, you know, hopefully we support each other or we express some interest in what the other one’s doing.

Of course, I. But we, we kind of, um, you know, allow each other to, to be us and grow as we will grow. And I think that that philosophy, which fortunately my wife does share, I think has frankly saved our marriage. Yeah. And we’ve seen, we’ve been married for, you know, 22 years or so, like, and we’ve seen, um, how, you know, we, I got married when I was like, what, 27 or something like that.

So [00:29:00] people change. Right. Right. I have changed. She has changed. We’ve changed. You know. Good. Right. That’s good. That, and it’s unavoidable, and so I just think if you’re hanging on to who you think your partner was or should be, then I. Yep. Fissure is a much more likely outcome, unfor, you know? So

Julie: yeah. And you can always have like girlfriends that you can share your spirituality with or friends.

True. That there’s other people out there. Yes, a hundred percent. And for those who are listening and didn’t. See Billy’s hands. Oh yeah. Thank you. Um, he kind of put ’em like in a prayer shaped and then allowed like one hand to slide up and the other to slide down, uh, go back and forth and it just like allows for the two people to have this beautiful movement.

I think that that’s so wonderful. And you also said you do you, which is a phrase that I heard. A lot of times at the beginning when I was getting started in this, like, just focus in on yourself. You don’t have to worry about what your partner’s doing. Um, they’re on their own journey and spirit’s gonna bring them where they need to be in their own [00:30:00] time.

Billy Wynne: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for reminding me. We’re on audio, so I’ll, oh, no, that’s okay.

Julie: We got video too. But, uh, more people definitely listen. Yes. Than watching. Yeah. Another part, uh, in your book is you talk about that you gave up drinking alcohol without participating in AA or traditional programs.

What was that like for you and what are your thoughts on the sober curious movement that’s been going on for the past few years?

Billy Wynne: Sure. Yeah, so I, I really feel lucky. My wife calls it a miracle. I mean, I was a very. Aggressive drinker for 25 years. And, um, it, it created a lot of harm, you know, for me and the people around me.

Uh, and there’s a couple of reasons that I was able to quit. I think in that, you know, with, with, from what I hear, you know, relatively easily, and one of them is, is I was in, in my meditation and Zen Buddhist practice and specifically I was in what we call the jakai processes where, um, a [00:31:00] student adopts the, uh, we call them the Bodhi precepts.

I won’t go too deep into the. You know, wonky terminology here, but basically they’re ethical guidelines. And so one of them is about misusing alcohol and drugs. And so it’s, it does not mean it, it stems from the early days of monastic rules where, you know, there was no drinking. Of course there were no, there was, but, but now in modern times it’s, it’s more fluid and it’s really up to this student to find out what that precept means for them.

Mm-hmm. Well, for, and so, so many, many, you know, modern American Buddhists do drink and that, you know, so, but for me, encountering that precept in 20 18, 20 19. Um, the writing was on the wall that I, I could not like, be in integrity in an accord with that precept and continue to drink. Uh, so that was a key, um, uh, factor in my decision to drink.

Another one was that my wife Christie was, um, going down the non-drinking past. She actually quit drinking a month before me. Uh, now she didn’t ask me to not, you know, I think, I think she knew better. Yeah. She, she wasn’t like, this was not for her or because of [00:32:00] her. But it did help that she was exploring it.

And actually there was an article that she wrote, um, loosely based on her reading of Annie Grace’s This Naked Mind. And Annie was very kind to endorse my book, and Christie got certified as a, a teacher in Annie’s curriculum for this Naked Mind. But really helping Christie write that article bought me into the neuroscience and, you know, the, the evolving science around, um, alcohol.

One key aspect of which is that no amount of alcohol is healthy. And I, I’m not gonna go into a big thing about this, but it, there is, there is a ongoing belief, you know, propagated by very self-interested enterprises that some amount of alcohol is actually good for you. And that, that is, that is not true.

Um, just so everybody knows. But, so that was a factor. Um, and, and I, you know, also the. Maybe, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago, I remember going on a yoga retreat and no offense to the proprietors of this yoga retreat, but it was in Napa Valley, and we would get hammered in the evening on wine. [00:33:00] And you know, that stuff goes on.

It’s like, let’s go for a 10 K and then let’s drink at the beer garden. And it’s like. That, you know, look, everybody’s gotta do their thing, but let’s not pretend they’re consistent with each other, you know? Right, right. Yoga in the morning and hammered in the afternoon is not, yeah, they’re not congruent.

I’m sorry. Um, so all those factors, so, so finally, so sorry. The big, the big thing really one of the big things was the movement going on these second half of your question? Yeah. At the time and still to the, to today. Um, not just kind of about ser Well, yes, to some degree s curious in the sense that. There was a community supporting people to choose not to drink who didn’t necessarily, you know, didn’t identify as alcoholics or were participating in aa.

So that, that helped me just make that choice. Also, the very beautiful growing array of alcohol free drinks. It’s, I don’t do a lot of that now, but at the time, knowing I could have a tasty alcohol free beer or a cocktail mocktail. That helped me through that, that transition. Um, [00:34:00] so I’m, I’m all for it. I mean, whatever helps people get right with their relationship to alcohol, and I don’t even, despite all the things I just said, I don’t evangelize to any, you know, anybody to stop drinking.

You have to find out where your, your place is with that chemical. But, you know, whatever tools, mechanisms, aa not a, a, a, whatever, that gets people to that place of peace and, you know, um, ease in their life. I’m, I’m with it.

Julie: I grew up in a family where, um, my dad’s dad was an alcoholic and went to AA because of that.

My dad would have a drink every now and then, but just very rarely. Mm-hmm. And same thing on my husband’s side with his dad and his grandfather. Um, dad didn’t drink because it was, it ran in the family. I’ve noticed within myself, just over the last couple of years as we’ve had like social groups and.

You’re around people and you just have this drink here and there. We talk about Dr. [00:35:00] Amen here on the podcast too, so people know who he is and he’ll say there isn’t any amount of alcohol that is safe to drink. And he’s put people in brain scanners for the last 30, 35 years. And I really trust his expertise, but just the way that it would make me feel emotionally and just kinda mess with my mood and my mental state even days later.

I feel like I’m very sensitive to caffeine too. When I feel it days later, I can’t drink coffee every day, drink Uhhuh, uh, just one here and there. But even that kind of messes me up. And I was noticing the same thing with alcohol too. I said that to my husband recently. Like, I just, I can’t do it. Like it’s totally fine if you do it really.

Is messing me with me even more as I’m kind of going through perimenopause and hormone levels, just being all over the place. I wondered how did that, did that have any impact on like your friendships or like couple friends or just [00:36:00] socializing at all?

Billy Wynne: Probably a little bit. Especially at first, you know, ’cause people were so used to me, you know, not only drinking, but kind of leading the charge, uh, on the drinking.

Yeah. So I think it was an adjustment for a lot of people. I think that, uh. You know, there probably were some questions about, you know, is Billy gonna go out anymore? Is Billy gonna be fun anymore? Or, you know, if I ever was, I don’t know. But, you know, it was, is, am I gonna enjoy like, hanging with Billy anymore?

And also, I didn’t just quit drinking. I, I opened an alcohol free bar. So I was like, it was well known, you know, and advertised that this was my path and I was. You know, um, a bit of a, you know, evangelizer of the alcohol free. I still am to some degree, um, path of life. Uh, but I think, but, but I, I have not lost any friends.

You know, I think there’s probably been some situations maybe, and, and again, my wife also doesn’t drink, so, you know, that we haven’t been invited to or, um, but I can’t, I can’t cite any friends who I’m not friends with anymore. And actually I, at least in terms of my experience of [00:37:00] socializing. I’m having more fun.

I’m happier. I am, you know, many, many of those times like, you know, I like would go to concerts that I was super excited about and I would black out or I would like, you know, be in conversations with people and I would, you know, just. Blah, you know, wasted. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that’s, that’s not fun for anybody.

No, for sure. So, so I, I think there is, that’s a good question. There’s a lot of fear, I think, and a lot of, you know, it’s one thing people often cite for not for continuing to drink. So I have to drink ’cause I wanna socialize and, you know, maybe internally they may not say it out loud, they think they won’t be as fun or as funny or whatever.

And I honestly believe that after a little bit of a transition period, your socializing will be better for you and your friends if you’re not drinking than. Than when you were,

Julie: you dedicated a chapter in your book to forgiveness, and that seems to be a very important part of your path. Tell us more about why forgiveness is so important.

Billy Wynne: Sure. Yeah. So I mean, for me, forgiveness is sort of at the heart of the emotional [00:38:00] journey. Uh, and it’s both of ourselves and of others. Uh, and you know, I, I start that chapter by describing some really regrettable incidents with my children, and it’s like, what do we, what do I do with that? You know, I did it.

Mm-hmm. It caused harm. And here I am, you know what, what am I, how am I gonna try to get to peace with that situation? And that’s, you know, we have so many, I mean, at least speak for myself, so many mistakes, you know, countless, you know, big and small. And it’s, what do we do with that? What do you, you know?

And so I think that it’s important also to note that that chapter comes after the chapter I talked about, about love, which where I really focus on boundaries. And, you know, again, allowing other, you know, each ourselves and others to kind of come forth as, as we are and as we will. And so for me, forgiveness, you know, the, the, the beginning of forgiveness is that it is not about the other person, right?

Mm-hmm. It is about ourselves coming to peace with whatever it was, whether it was something that we did or something that. They did. And so to, to approach forgiveness [00:39:00] with an expectation that the other person is going to react in a certain way or do the right thing or, or forgive us in return is a recipe for failure.

Right? Yeah. Because it maintains that sort of sense of like, the thing that’s gonna make me happy and fulfilled is out there. I have to go get it, persuade it, acquire it. You know, um, convince it and then I’m gonna be, you know, and then, and then if they comply, then I’m gonna be happy. Well, life does not work that way.

And so really what, you know, what we can do is, is find our own center and our own piece with the situation. And so the, the, the process, and it is a process that ebbs and flows. If it’s a major event, it’s, it’s unlikely to be final, you know, in my opinion, at least in my experience. Um, then, uh, then it, you know, the step one of the process is turning toward the event or incident, or, you know, relationship as it is, right?

So, so to try to re-encounter the circumstances. As best as we can, [00:40:00] minus the emotional overhang and thoughts and judgements and, you know, all these types of things that are immediately rush in when we, we encounter that situation and try it again. See it with a big lens of who we are, who they are, all the and Buddhist term alert, you know, causes and conditions for the way that we are not, not to, um, approve and not to take away responsibility.

Um, because, you know, we’re not here to. Approve, and we’re not, you know, we are always responsible whether we like it or not, um, but to, to, um, freshen our lens for what, what happened and how we can be with it, right? Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s the goal of the, the forgiveness, you know, process. Uh, so, um, and there’s, I have a guided meditation and I, there’s like, for example, so a very prominent person in my life, I wrote a letter, you know, to them and I was deciding whether or not to send it.

And I realized that if I did, I, I, I was not able [00:41:00] to, um, detach myself from my expectations of how they would respond. So I didn’t send it. I read it to my wife, uh, instead, and it was very, very moving and powerful experience, to be honest. And so, uh, but that type of practice, which is also in the book, is, is part of the, this, this, this, um, effort, you know, this movement in the direction of forgiveness and it’s.

Rarely just to con conclude something and to set expectations, you know, one and done. It’s like you do my forgiveness meditation for 12 minutes. You’re not gonna forgive your parent for the terrible, you know, hypothe right? Like that. Please forget about all of that. But, but it might start to soften the edges, you know?

Right. And then, yeah, a month later, try it again, and then a month later write the letter, get all your feelings out on paper, and then decide, you know, where to go from there. So, um, you know, it’s all to me, the, the heart of the practice. Is about, um, entering into the next moment with an open heart. And so we really can’t do that freely, uh, and peacefully and lovingly [00:42:00] if we’re hanging on to our anger at ourselves and other people.

Julie: Hmm. I love how you reframe that because I think you just. Kinda solved one of the hugest misconceptions on forgiveness. You know, I think a lot of people grew up thinking that if you forgive and you did it the right way mm-hmm. That it should never come back. Mm-hmm. Like the feeling should never come back.

Mm-hmm. And that hasn’t been my experience of forgiveness at all. Forgiveness is a process that you kind of. I, I love how you said soften. You know, you soften to it and it starts to shift and starts to change over time. It seems to be the best that we can do with it at this point in consciousness that we’re all in.

In the book. You suggest that we’re all whole and complete right from the very beginning, which I just think is such truth. On the other hand, we all have. Significant challenges in our lives, and billions of people, like we were talking about at the beginning, just struggle to get their basic needs met, like [00:43:00] food, water, shelter.

In what sense do you feel that all people are whole and complete, and what does this mean for the suffering and the injustice we see every day?

Billy Wynne: So I, so I’ll tell you where it comes from for me, and I also wanna acknowledge it comes from lots of different places for lots of different people, right? And so for some it’s a, it’s a spiritual source.

Um, and, uh, for me, it, it comes from my Zen Buddhist practice. Mm-hmm. And, um, at the heart of it, and it’s why the book is called The Empty Path, is because in, um, as we inquire into the, the nature of things and into our own nature and, um, in increase our ability to settle our thoughts and judgments and, you know, kind of the, the stories that we create about our life experience.

Then we can begin to see that the sort of boundaries and identities that we apply to things are really just in our mind. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that, you know, as we slowly let those things go, and as we see things who don’t have these kind [00:44:00] of coherent, permanent identities that we assign to them, then there’s no separation between us and the things around us.

And I mean, that. Literally. Mm-hmm. So if we can open our hearts and minds to that and see that, that we are all things, then, then there’s nothing lacking. There’s nothing missing. It doesn’t mean there’s no sadness or tragedy. There most definitely is, but it’s whole, it’s a part of the whole it. So, um, with that.

Then there’s, you know, that in Buddhist terms, relaxes our attachment to other things, our craving for things to be something different than they are. Um, and I’ll use, you know, I think where the rubber meets the road is like, what do, what do we do then? And so I talk about in the book, and it’s part of the reason that I closed awake the bars, because I, the alcohol free bar, I couldn’t.

To do it in a way that was peaceful and easy and loving. Like I couldn’t be the person that I, you know, intended to be with that, even though that was a well [00:45:00] intended. And I think, you know, hopefully to some degree, beneficial contribution to the world. I, I was, um, as stressed and, and suffering as I’d ever been.

And so the thing that I believe is whatever we decide we can contribute to the world, whatever we can do about the suffering of others. That a very important guidepost is how do we feel and how are we when we are doing it, right? Mm-hmm. So, so like if we’re, uh, working for a nonprofit and we have a social justice, you know, outcome that we are pursuing, I break, I, this is very kind of simplified, but there’s really two ways to do it.

One is the people who disagree with me are my enemy. I’m gonna do, you know, direct all of my firepower with them to defeat them. And I’m gonna be tense and angry and aggressive and assertive and, you know, blah. There’s that approach. There’s another approach that says, this is complicated. There’s lots of different viewpoints.

I’m not certain that my opinion is the correct one. I, I can have my [00:46:00] beliefs and values, but I, I can let go of my certainty, right? And I can, I can show up every day for this task with a light heart. Right. And, and, and I think some people are afraid that that means they don’t care or that they’re not gonna be as effective.

But I believe, and in my experience, that we’re actually much more effective and we don’t get burned out. Right. And we don’t quit and we don’t, you know, get stressed or as, or as stressed, we’re gonna get some stressed, but, you know, we’re, we’re gonna be lighter and easier and more creative and, and more loving and we’re gonna kind of, we’re gonna kind of manifest and be the outcome that we are pursuing on, on the course of that, that effort.

So, um, so I think that there’s, uh, you know, um, everything about the practice of cultivating peace and love and centeredness in our lives, um, is ultimately about our contribution to the world around us, right? And I, that’s another thing that, um, kind of a misnomer that, that on, you know, uh, [00:47:00] at the beginning and from the outside meditation can look like a very selfish, kind of self-indulgent.

Practice. Mm-hmm. Like, you’re just sitting there. Right. You know, I mean, yeah. What could be more, you know, kind of self-interested than that. Um, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a part of how we’re structuring our lives to do the things that we care about, right? I mean, and, and the, the time we spend there, I, I, again, I believe and assert and, you know, we’ll make us more effective, uh, in accomplishing the, the, the justice oriented outcomes that we’re pursuing elsewhere in our life.

Julie: One more question on this tied in with what you were just talking about. I think that there are a lot of people who feel a deep sense of guilt, you know? Yeah. For things that were not even in our control, right? Yeah. Like it kind of gets. To bigger questions of, well, why was I born in this part of the world when somebody else was born in another part that isn’t, um, as fortunate and they have a much different life and much more difficulty and challenge.

[00:48:00] I don’t know that that guilt for a long time does a lot for us. I think it kind of hinders us from doing much good. In the world. Yeah. But how do you see that and how do you work through it?

Billy Wynne: As with all of our, you know, emotions there, they can be teachers, right? And so what might start as guilt, uh, could be awareness, uh mm-hmm.

It could be attention, you know, to, um, our own experience in that of others. Um, I do think that it is important to inquire into ways in which we might be contributing to the injustice around us, even if we have No, absolutely. In, you know, kind of conscious intention. Of that, uh, and that that can be painful and challenging, you know?

Uh, and, and I don’t also think that there, you know. There are not clear answers to these types of, of questions of, you know, kind of where does my responsibility begin and where does it end and what am you know, what have I caused and what have I not caused? And, uh, that sort of thing. But I think those are very, very good questions to [00:49:00] inquire, uh, into.

And so, like you said, I think that there’s, you know, um, healthy awareness and there’s unhealthy awareness, and the healthy awareness is steering toward. Our capacity to let in our emotional experience and that of others, and, you know, to come forth and address it, right? One way or the other. And in some cases, addressing it might mean it’s not my responsibility, it’s outta my control.

You know, I’m not going to focus on it. I know it’s there, but it’s, it’s right. What I am gonna focus on is the things that are in my control. And within my capacity with like, you know, the skills and time and, and what, whatever that I have, you know, to, to actually do something about that thing. Um, and that, that is our contribution to the world is what is what we actually do right.

And say, and encounter in our own lives. I think there is a, um, I do this a lot. I think we all do it. There’s a feeling that we owe the world our suffering. I. Right. Like, it’s like the way to atone for the relative luxury [00:50:00] and comfort that I have in my life compared to other so many people around the world is for me to feel guilty and to, you know, be unhappy or, you know, to, and, and I don’t think that anybody wants that or benefits from that.

What we owe the world is our peace, you know, in our happiness. Yeah. Like Thi Han and other, you know, are, are really wonderful spokespeople for this, that like happiness is a contribution to the world. You know, if, if it, it comes from a, a heart, you know, heart-centered place, right? Not, of course, like a kind of scoffing or whatever, kind of happiness, but a genuine joy for sure being alive in the world.

Um, and, uh, is a, is is a contribution to others. And so I don’t think we should hesitate, you know, to be happy if we feel happy. Yeah.

Julie: Amazing. Billy, you’re such a wonderful, um, speaker, presenter. Your book is just filled with so much radiant love. Tell everybody where they can find you and your work.

Billy Wynne: Thank you so much, julie.

Billy wynn.com is gonna be the easiest thing to do to follow me and find ways to buy the [00:51:00] book. There’s also audio, uh, guided meditation recordings on my website. There’s information about upcoming book events and I do a lot of online things. I have something coming up next Monday, so uh, billy one.com is your one stop shop for, for catching up with me one way or another.

Julie: Amazing. Thank you so much for your time, your work, and just for being here with us.

Billy Wynne: Thank you, Julie. It was a pleasure.

Julie: I hope you felt your angels are wrapping you in love today. They want you to remember, you are never alone. You are always being guided to the next right step on your own soul’s journey.

If you’re ready to deepen your journey even more, I have two ways to support you right now. I offer discounted readings on my website every once in a while. I’m doing it right now where you can have a session with me that will be shared on the podcast. These readings are powerful. Personal sessions where we connect with your angels and your loved ones on the [00:52:00] other side and bring through the exact guidance your soul is ready to receive.

And enrollment is open for the all new class of the online Angel Reiki school. That’s beginning July 1st. This is where you’ll get certified in medium ship. Energy healing and angel messages all in one program. You’ll learn how to develop your intuition to the max, and I’ll personally walk you through starting your own spiritual business if your heart is calling you to become a healer.

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