Join me as I sit down with actress-author Bethany Joy Lenz (One Tree Hill) for a raw, transformative conversation about her memoir Dinner for Vampires—a deep dive into surviving cults, narcissistic abuse, and reclaiming spiritual autonomy. Discover how to spot manipulation, set boundaries, and heal through faith and critical thinking.

🌟 Key Topics:

• Cults vs. Narcissistic Abuse: Why “cult” is outdated—and what to call it instead.
• Biblical Misinterpretations: How spiritual authority is weaponized.
• Healthy Boundaries: Loving detachment vs. toxic isolation.
• Healing Through Writing: Bethany’s journey from trauma to empowerment.

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📚 Follow Bethany: @bethanyjoylenz

#CultSurvivor #SpiritualHealing #NarcissisticAbuse #FaithJourney #Boundaries

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TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW

TIMESTAMPED OVERVIEW
00:00 Introduction to Angels and Awakening Podcast
02:04 Bethany Joy Lenz Introduces Dinner for Vampires
03:10 Defining Narcissistic Abuse vs. Cult Dynamics
06:00 Spiritual Authority and Church Trauma
10:00 Reconciling Faith, Justice, and Divine Love
15:09 Healing from Spiritual Manipulation
21:09 Boundaries vs. Isolation in Toxic Systems
25:00 Raising Critical Thinkers in Spiritual Communities
31:00 Biblical Context and Modern Misinterpretations
35:00 Surviving Narcissistic Abuse in Family Dynamics
40:00 CS Lewis’ Wisdom on Healthy Relationships
45:60 Writing as Healing: Bethany’s Book Journey
50:00 Closing: Hallmark Films and Final Takeaways

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Day 31 of 31 Miracles: Your soul is already perfect, just as it is. Today, your Spirit Team invites you to see yourself through the eyes of the divine—whole, complete, and worthy of love. Release the need to strive for perfection and embrace the beauty of who you are in this moment. You are a unique expression of divine love, and the world is better because you’re in it.

TRANSCRIPT:

25-0324_BethanyJoyLenz_Interview_Audio_WC01_032325

Julie: [00:00:00] Hello, beautiful souls. I’m thrilled you’re here to connect with the divine guidance of your angels. Imagine feeling the gentle, loving whispers of your angels guiding you every step of your life. If you’re ready to experience that profound connection, book a personal reading@theangelmedium.com by clicking the readings tab.

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Your journey with the Angels begins now. Let’s see what messages they have for you in today’s show. Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening Podcast. I’m your host and author, Julie Janis and friends. Today we’re here with guest Bethany Joy Lens, who wrote the book, dinner for [00:02:00] Vampires Life on a Cult TV show, while also in an.

Actual cult joy, thank you so much for about being here. Absolutely. Thanks for having

Bethany Joy Lenz: me.

Julie: This is something that you probably get all the time, but your book is just so amazing and I think it’s so needed in this world because one of the things that you talk about is just kind of the misconception of who can get taken by shams.

And the way that I see it, there’s so many shams happening in the world that people don’t even know about. Um, and you say successful people are just the most viable and kind of open to them. I believe that that’s true. Talk to me about this a little bit and just kind of open us up. Sure.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Well, hello everyone.

I’ve, I’ve written a book for those of you who don’t know. I was on a TV series called One Tree Hill for, um, nine seasons. We filmed in Wilmington, North Carolina. And during the [00:03:00] years that I was on the show, I was also involved in a high demand group that was located, uh, in Idaho. And I have written a book about my experience.

Um, I. And, and really one of the main reasons for writing this book is that, that there are so many people who have been caught up in narcissistic abuse in various formats. So that was one of the biggest. Revelations for me as I was healing and processing through my trauma to realize that this, this label of cult is actually very, it can be really damaging.

Um, and I use it here as a sort of camp, tongue in cheek. It’s the slang that everyone knows. But the thing is, it’s not definable and it actually is a word that creates a sense of other, it creates a sense of strangeness. It, it’s, um, it’s a victim blamer. It’s a word that is, um, I, I [00:04:00] think it’s becoming outdated in a lot of ways and we need to, we need to start adjusting our understanding from we group of weird people to narcissistic abuse.

In a group format, which is really no different than in an interpersonal relationship or romantic relationship, a workplace dynamic, a family dynamic, these things that this abuse just exists in a, in a variety of ways. And so I wanted to a, release people from the shame of feeling like, Hey, you’re really weird by being stuck in this group, high demand group cult, no, you were coerced into narcissistic abuse.

Yours might happen to be in a group format. Somebody else’s might be in another way, but let’s go from there so we can start releasing that shame.

Julie: Yes. And really it’s being deceived, right? And I know I didn’t like kind of start that out the best, but as I was reading through the book, I’ve been looking at different forms of deception lately.

Like my mom works for a [00:05:00] doctor’s office, right? And she’s really gotten involved in looking at what Medicaid is and how people are being deceived into this other form. Of it, which has like Medicaid in the title, but you’re not getting actual Medicaid. So people come in all the time to her desk and they’re like, but I’ve got Medicaid.

This should be paid for. And they’re, she’s like, no, you purchased the private one that has Medicaid in the term, but you’re getting, they’re getting duped out of thousands and even some of these timeshare corporations and. There’s so much to this story.

Bethany Joy Lenz: It’s so, it’s so upsetting, isn’t it? The, the realization that there really are people out there who are intentionally fleecing.

The population. Yes. In many, in many arenas, in many ways. From your local church pastor. And that that is certainly not to say that every church pastor is that way, but it’s an arena where that happens a [00:06:00] lot to your local community center to whatever, like there are so many. Variables from your local church pastor, who, which not all of them are the same, but, you know, I think that’s an arena where that happens a lot.

And that’s, and then all the way up to the government and pharmaceuticals. Like, it’s just such a broad spectrum. But if you get that, somebody with that personality disorder, they’re brilliant at starting companies and running them and, and building, and building and building and building because they don’t mind running over people.

But, you know, for, for most of us, we just trust, we’re like, oh, let’s just. Why? Why would I go into any scenario assuming that somebody’s trying to take advantage of me?

Julie: And there’s a point at which you get to towards the end of the book where you kind of talk about that. Like almost you’re calling out to God and you’re saying, I was a good person.

I did all of the things right. I did everything I was supposed to do. And yet this happened. And it reminded me of a conversation I’ve been having with. My therapist over the last [00:07:00] year. ’cause she said, Julie, you keep coming upon these things where you think that if you’re a good person, that good things are gonna happen.

And she said, that’s not always true. Yeah. She said, that’s a belief in a fair and just world. And when people have that, she said, your mind just kind of spins, like it keeps going around because you’re trying to fix it or bring some resolution to it. But there can’t always be. Resolution to people who have free will and use it in a negative, harmful way.

Bethany Joy Lenz: It’s one of the most difficult existential issues to resolve

Julie: because I feel like I always grew up watching romantic comedies and I’m like, I want the resolution in order to find peace. But in these situations, you have to be able to find peace within yourself. So I’m skipping to the end and we could, or you can dive into that and then we can kind of go back to the beginning.

Bethany Joy Lenz: It is a very difficult thing to resolve. The idea of justice when bad things have happened to you and you [00:08:00] feel like you didn’t deserve them. And that’s something I really had to wrestle with because it wasn’t satisfying to me to say, I. Well, I guess I just have to let it go and trust in some abstract idea like karma or trust in something that, you know, it, it’s all just gonna work itself out.

Like that’s not, I, I don’t know how you believe in a loving God and believe that that’s possible because as a parent, if someone hurt my child, I’m angry. I want justice for, for my child. Right. So I’m, I, it’s, it’s not, okay, so then I, so I can either believe that there’s no resolution and I just have to accept that, and then that affects my ability to believe in a loving God, which if that’s true, then that’s true, but I, I don’t find that to be true.

I don’t think that’s the most logical solution all things considered. Or you can demand justice here on this earth and work yourself into the ground until that person is [00:09:00] paying for what they did or put behind bars or whatever. Which is also something I explored, but ultimately it’s not, I’m not healed from that.

Like I had a friend whose sons were beaten in a parking lot and they’ve been looking for the perpetrator for two or three years and they finally found him and they’re the guys going on trial and it’s uh, or I think he just did a plea deal maybe, but he’s going to prison. That’s still her, like her son is still living with.

Long-term ramifications from that. And this guy going to prison doesn’t heal her son. It doesn’t take away the memory and the experience. There has to be a middle ground in there somewhere. Either everything is meaningless and there’s no justice in the world, and we just accept that and move on and accept all the implications for that as well and how that affects the rest of our life and what morality is, and if there’s any foundation for morality and all those things, or.

We say, no, justice is only happening [00:10:00] here. And then you don’t rest until, yeah. Until it’s, and neither one of those really works. No. So, um, I think, you know, and that’s why for me, the, the, I always hesitate to talk about this, about my faith because I don’t, I’ve been through so much with people pushing things and creating, you know, boundaries that are, that were so strict and like, you have to believe this.

So I, I don’t say this. From a place of, um, trying to like, convince or convert or anything like that. For me, the, the most logical and emotionally satisfying solution to this is still in the Christ story where all the justice is paid for. We just, you know, and, and the things that I do wrong, I don’t have to, I, I don’t have to pay for miraculously and live out of gratitude for that and the things that someone else did wrong.

I don’t have to pursue their justice in a way that, um, is for my [00:11:00] own satisfaction, and yet I still can release and forgive because I know that I’m loved regardless. And so it’s it that construct. I. Helps me resolve that justice and I’m sorry if that’s a long-winded way of saying it, but I just feel like maybe that would be helpful for any of our listeners who are like stuck in the, in-between of of the, that idea of like, good person, bad things happening to me, what do I do that may be a, a path that could be helpful.

Julie: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. It’s beautiful explanation. Thanks. Yeah. When it comes to your journey, I resonated with so much of your just upbringing. ’cause I think we lived in like, I don’t know if it was 10 or 12 different houses before I was 14. You did? Yes. Um. And just happen to make new friends and be in a new area.

And I, I feel like an extroverted introvert where I really love my couch and my PJs. Yeah. But when I have to go out, I can turn it on. [00:12:00] But, so you’re in la you’re just on one tree hill starting out and somebody invites you to kind of like this Bible study at somebody’s house, kinda like a youth group. You go and kind of tell everyone how you got in.

And kind of coerced in.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Well, that, that’s true. Yeah. We moved around a lot when I was a kid. I really wanted to be a part of a family. Um, as an only child, it, it was hard for me to feel like I had a place to belong. So it, it became really the, any of the church community environments that we had, that where I felt like I fit in, which was rare, like kind of almost never felt like I fit in the, the place the, those became valuable to me.

And also. Any theater community that I became a part of that, that was the one place I felt like, oh, I definitely fit in in theater communities. My [00:13:00] instincts, I. Were praised, whereas my instincts in church environments often were not praised. Um, because I was a weird artist and I wanted to explore things and ask questions that were sort of out of bounds and, you know, I was okay with things that other people weren’t okay with.

And because I just was like, yeah, but. If God’s an artist and, and we’re artists too, and we’re a little, all little mini creators, and what can we create and how can we push all the boundaries? And I mean, that’s what an artist does. Like we’re there are people in the world who are meant to be walking around pushing on all the, all the buttons and all the walls going where, where, where are the boundaries here?

It was hard for me to feel like I belonged anywhere and, and the theater really provided that for me. Unfortunately, with a theater. You’re only connecting with a group of people for like two months at a time, and then you break off and go do another show. And so there’s this constant recalibration and it, it didn’t quite satisfy that need for family.

I moved to [00:14:00] la uh, my roommate invited me to come visit her. Bible study that she had been going to as a, as a means of just making some friends and connecting with people in a time when I felt alone and kind of vulnerable. You know, I was 20 in LA on my own and uh, and so I started going. It was just a home group bible study.

Like so many of the others that I’d been to before. I think it started out pretty normal. Mm-hmm. And then. Morphed into something a lot more controlling, a lot darker as. The, there was a pastor from Idaho who came in to visit as like a guest speaker, the mother figure of the group. This woman who was the mother of the two young men that were running it, you know, it was a bunch of Hollywood actors and uh, Hollywood young professionals and this mom figure.

Also has narcissistic personality disorder. I’m sure. I’m not a psychiatrist, so I can’t officially diagnose her, but I, I’m pretty sure between [00:15:00] her and her invitation to this other guy from, from back in their home state in Idaho, uh, coming down, I think the two of them saw some kind of mutual opportunity, began the, uh, the cycle of.

Of love bombing and then tearing down and gaslighting, and it took a long time. You know, it was like a year long slow burn before. I think we were all pretty well entrenched

Julie: and I think that so many people feel this fear of. Spirituality because, right, like I was grown up in Catholic religion at first when my parents were still together, went to Catholic grade school, then we left and we went to a mega Christian Church.

You know? Oh wow. What a shift. Right? But if it wasn’t at least once a week, it was twice a week and Bible study and purity rings and just. You know, just everything. And so you go from kind of having [00:16:00] some rules, right? A lot of rules. A lot of rules to stepping out of that and being more spiritual. Because spiritual, like I was trying to tell my daughter Al last night, she’s like, what are the difference between all of the religions and what is spirituality?

And I was saying, if you strip away all of the rules. And all of the stories from all of the different religions. What you’re left with is God, God’s universe, source, energy and love, and the foundation. That’s everybody, like within everybody. That’s our spirituality. And yet with the spiritual community, there are no rules, right?

And so people can just talk about karma. If something bad happened to you, it’s karma, right? I don’t believe at all. And people use their power and they don’t even think about what they’re saying. They just talk and these things come out. But then people live their lives based on it [00:17:00] and it’s so

Bethany Joy Lenz: manipulative.

It, it also can become a, like a cosmic vending machine, which is why, again, it’s so important to understand what you believe. Yeah. And can’t just. Well, you can, but it won’t work like you could to, to pick and choose. I like this from this religion. I like this from this religion. I like this from this sort of like hippie dippy idea.

I like that. Like it sounds really open and inclusive, but you’re, you’re, um. All you’re really doing. I think it would be important to acknowledge in that case that all you’re really doing is becoming your own God. Because you’re saying I’m capable of deciding what is true and what is not true, but it’s just for me.

So then there is no truth actually. There is no foundation or morality or any kind of cosmic spiritual rules or anything. I just get to decide what I want. [00:18:00] If you wanna live your life that way, that’s fine. I just, I think you’re gonna run into the issue ultimately of, but then you’re just your own God. So why don’t we just say that, like, let’s just call it what it is you.

Why are we, why are we saying it’s God and spirit and ultimate energy, but you’re creating it all in your own mind. So I think we, it’s, it’s important to understand that like truth has to exist, even saying. Truth, the, the, the truth is that everybody gets to pick their own truth. That is a statement of truth, you’re saying.

Love it. I love that truth. Right, right. But yeah, you’re, I mean, you’re saying, I think that’s a, that’s actually such a great question to ask someone who says everyone should be able to choose their own truth. You can say, is that true?

Yeah, ’cause you just said that there’s no truth and nobody has the answer, but you’re saying you have the answer, which is that no one has the answer. So [00:19:00] there’s this circular logic and um. Yeah, I just think it’s like, it, it, it’s why I wanted to put this out because it shows you how susceptible you are if you don’t actually understand what you believe and follow it all the way down to the end and, and follow all the trails to understand the implications in your life and other people’s lives in every path.

Then you’re, you’re just believing some random things. And that, that’s what happened to me. That’s why I ended up in a cult, because I just believed what I was told instead of actually understanding what I believed. I’m sorry. Maybe that to sound like a soapbox.

Julie: I love it. I love it. Um, so how did you get to the point?

Because if you’re, if you think about like that, my mind is just processing. A lot of times when we were growing up, you know, I heard a spiritual teacher who’s got a mega platform yesterday say, [00:20:00] you really have to start with children young, teaching them young. And I thought, okay, yes, to some degree. And how much is that indoctrination?

Of just like, yeah, you like, like, and they were saying it from a place of good heart and good intent, but I just took a step back from that comment and I go, Ooh, that didn’t hit right. You know what I mean?

Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. Yeah. I think, man, that, that’s so true. And I, I have thought about that often. ’cause I’ve, I’ve also got a daughter, you know, she’s 13 now.

How old is Al? 13? March 23rd. Oh my

Julie: God. Yeah. And we’re only six months apart. Oh yeah. Yeah. So

Bethany Joy Lenz: for me, um, it’s interesting. I, I guess. Indoctrination comes when someone is telling [00:21:00] you, here’s the truth, and they’re not explaining to you why. Mm-hmm. But they’re not. They’re not. Um. Allowing you to really ask questions and pick and poke and, and pull it apart as much as they can.

Julie: Or like, thinking back of it now, just like in this conversation of being in youth group growing up, not having, like when I was in youth group, you didn’t have the ability to challenge it. Like if you were in youth group and you went out and you studied Buddhism, you were totally shamed for it.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. But

Julie: why aren’t you allowed to look at all the different that right. Informations out there in order? Absolutely. To just find what you, what resonates with your heart.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Well, I mean, I guess what’s really ironic about it is that when someone I is saying, this is the true way, this is the best way for all of humanity, why in the world would there be any [00:22:00] fear around someone exploring other ways?

Because if it’s true that this one way is the the right best way for all of humanity. Wouldn’t that ultimately be the truth that everyone arrived at anyway?

Julie: Yeah, there would be no fear. ’cause you’d always come back to it.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. You’d be like, go ahead, go explore all the other religions. You’re gonna find out that it’s not as satisfying as this one.

It doesn’t make as much sense as this one. It’s not. Go ahead.

Julie: Joy. We’re solving so much here.

Bethany Joy Lenz: You know what I mean? But it’s the fear, the like fear of Oh my God, but I then, then you’re gonna go to hell. I’m not gonna be able to save you. And like, what just is God, God or not? Is God big enough to handle your journey and my journey and someone else’s journey or not?

Yeah. So you can’t have it both ways.

Julie: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Yeah. Totally agree. And I think teaching kids. Critical thinking is incredibly valuable to that, to that end, actually to say like, this is [00:23:00] what I believe. Hey, kiddo, this is what I, I believe is, is best for humanity. This is what I’ve seen as proof of that. Here’s some of the evidence I can lay out for you in terms of the history of our faith, in terms of like, you know, um, the horrible things that have been done and the, and the great things that have been done.

We can talk about how all the different religions handle different big life issues like the afterlife, like marriage, like, uh, grief and anger and justice, and all of these things that we need answers for in order to inform how we behave in the world. But. I would like for you to use your brain and your personal experience as you move through life to compare and contrast and make mistakes and try different things.

You will find the truth. If truth exists, you will find it. And if it doesn’t, then who cares anyway.

Julie: Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, one of the things that you talk about in [00:24:00] the book, and I hadn’t heard this term before, is, um, somebody having spiritual authority over you, that spiritual a authority isn’t a term that I had heard before and really, wait.

You grew up in, in church, like a mega church and you never heard that? If you are searching for a community where you can share your beliefs openly, connect with kindred spirits and feel truly supported, you’re exactly where you need to be. My programs are more hands on and unlike anything you’ve ever experienced before.

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You can opt for our enlightening online eight week course starting on the first of every month. [00:26:00] Or immerse yourself in our in-person session in Oakbrook, Illinois from April 11th to the 13th, 2025, complete with online access. Step into a realm of angelic energy, profound clarity, and embrace limitless possibilities.

Sign up today@theangelmedium.com and for more details, check the show notes to book a call with me, Julie, to talk about how this program can unleash your hidden gifts. And transform your path into one of soulful abundance. Yeah. So in the church, no, I didn’t really have that at all where I ever felt that or saw that.

I. I don’t know. It was weird. No, I didn’t get that.

Bethany Joy Lenz: So interesting. ’cause it was a really common, a very common, I mean, it’s so common that that I think that’s why we have these issues with the quote unquote patriarchy. Yes. In our country. Because for sure this has been lorded over women and [00:27:00] taken completely out of context for.

The hundreds of years.

Julie: Yeah, we moved so much that I can tell you I’ve got certain things that I never learned in school, like certain lessons that I never learned. Um, so maybe it was one of those things, but Well, God bless.

Bethany Joy Lenz: That’s fantastic,

Julie: right? Yeah.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Um, you never have the hangup. That’s great.

Julie: No, but how do you look out for that and how does somebody who.

Maybe has grown up with spiritual authority and has had people tell them, you know, the man needs to make decisions. Yeah. How do you come out from underneath that

Bethany Joy Lenz: you study? Um, you pay attention to NT Wright and Timothy Keller and you listen to. People who are of that faith community that can explain to you the context based on, uh, what was happening [00:28:00] in that region of the world at that time in history.

Because when we try to apply historical documents from thousands of years ago to modern Western society, there’s a, there’s a transition phase or a translation phase that we need to really. Pay attention to. It’s not like you can just pick something that was relevant. It’s, it’s vending again, there’s like vending machine theology.

It doesn’t, it has to make sense. Yes. And, but you know, a lot of people are, are comfortable to just believe what they’re told and what they’re brought up with. And um, as a side tangent, what’s interesting about that is. We are all taught to respect authority and to listen to your teacher at school and to pay, pay attention to parents and be obedient.

And that’s a really important lesson. You have to know how to take direction. You have to know how to be respectful, um, but you also need to be taught to think for yourself. And that seems to be the key piece that’s [00:29:00] missing that there’s so much nuance involved in that. I think. I mean, I know just as a parent who was focused on doing that, it’s hard.

To insist on obedience out of the principle of the matter, while also encouraging critical thought and for her to. Process, how she feels about it, and then communicate it in a way that is still respectful. Like that is a really gray, like, nuanced thing. Yeah. But it’s, but it because of nuance. I don’t think, as humans, we like to live in nuance.

We like black and white. We like things to make, make sense and be compartmentalized and be easy.

Julie: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Um, so for people who. Grew up in an environment where, especially for women and actually for the men too, like understanding what that verse from Paul, and I think it is Colossians, um, is talking about and in terms of marriage and that the man is the head of the wife and all these things, like [00:30:00] there is a, the level of humility.

Required in that context is like, is basically the husband is functioning as the biggest servant in the, in the relationship. He is meant to be there as the biggest servant and the wife. The word that’s used, I think it’s, I wanna say Azer. Or Ozer, ugh. I’m not a historian, but. The word for wife that’s used in that as help is the kind of help that God gives us, the help, the kind of help that has so much power and ability behind it that the husband is actually unable to be complete and whole without this help.

Like there is, there is a massive amount of power and capability involved in that word. So, so there’s this mutual merging of like, like submission to [00:31:00] each other in removing our own selfishness. How do we, you know, it’s like, this is like now just normal marriage therapy stuff. You try, like, for sure, your selfishness is the biggest problem in the marriage, and you guys are gonna start connecting like crazy because if everybody’s treating themselves like, I’ve got issues, then we’re looking for each other and how can I meet my, my husband or my wife’s needs?

Um, that might have sound, sounded like a tangent. I feel like I could have over-explain that, but, um, no. Yeah, it’s just like once you start to understand historical context and what words actually mean in the original Greek and Hebrew and aic, then you’re like, oh, I get what this is. But we don’t wanna do that.

We don’t wanna take the time to learn things. We just wanna believe what’s easy and keep moving on with our lives until 25 years into a marriage where you’re like, I’m miserable. My husband bosses me around all the time, and I. Do I exist? What? What about my needs? What about, and you’re like, oh, you’re following some imaginary rule of patriarchy that was never intended for you in the first place.[00:32:00]

Julie: I hope people are watching on YouTube. Um, so do you ever read Thomas Moore because he, uh, I started reading him in about like 1996 and, or maybe even 95. Uh, he likes to even go back and learn different languages. He reminds me of just a monk, um, so that he can write from that perspective. I’m writing it down.

Hold on.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Thomas Thomas Moore. What, what book of his would I get?

Julie: Well, he wrote like Dark Night of the Soul, but my favorites are like re-enchantment of everyday life and care of the Soul. I’ve really been spending a lot of time meditating this year on the fact that I think that, uh. Care is love. Like love has just lost so much.

Meaning we throw it around so much. Yeah. But care when somebody really cares for you and [00:33:00] takes care of you, my God. That’s like love and action.

Bethany Joy Lenz: It is. It is. That is, is that a love language? Like is that part of the love language that care is just. I think it’s all one of them. Or does it all encompassing, do you think?

Julie: I think it’s all encompassing. Yeah. But that’s where, um, Thomas Moore is like such a wordsmith and he does, he goes back, he studies languages for the exact reason that you just said, and then he puts together these magnificent books and then everybody who’s come after him, I feel like they take. Parts of his work.

Oh yeah. That

Bethany Joy Lenz: I, I’m looking forward to getting the book. Thank you. Yeah. His name, but I don’t know that I, it’s, he’s certainly not on my bookshelf, so I would love.

Julie: Yeah. Okay. I have another big question. Yes. Every time you watch a cult documentary, there’s always a aspect of like taking you away from [00:34:00] your family.

Um, and yet I’ve had to work. So hard with counselors and therapists because I don’t believe in this notion of just love everybody and forgive and let bygones be got bygones. There are certain people who, um, for as much as I do and put out into the world, I am fragile Sometimes just I need to keep my heart safe and there’s people for the work that I do in my family who will just.

Berate me and berate me and berate me about, well, this work is of the devil. And if you’re listening to your intuition, that’s of the devil. And I just can’t spend time going through those things again and again, and again and again. I would never force anybody or even ask anybody to step away from any loving relationship, but.

Do cults take a part of the truth and then blow it [00:35:00] up in a way? Does that make sense to make you like step away from people? I don’t. I’m trying to kind of find the distinction so that the community can understand where are boundaries safe and healthy, and where would a cult be a red flag? Or how would you just know that they’re trying to separate you?

Bethany Joy Lenz: It sounds like, I understand how it feels like they’re related, and I think they are. It sounds like two different questions, maybe. Sure. One, one maybe sounds like you’re asking, uh, about the idea of boundaries, healthy boundaries in the context of people in your life that you just sort of stuck with forever.

Like family.

Julie: Yeah.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Um, and that could even be your high school best friend who still lives in the same town as you and you see each other all the time, and you had a falling out, but like, what are you gonna do? You knew her for, [00:36:00] you know, ten first 10 years or your, you know, high school in your twenties or whatever.

It’s like, you’re just gonna, it’s family, you know?

Julie: Yeah.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Um, so where are those kind of healthy boundaries versus cutting someone out completely, but. Recognizing where that might be, uh, imposed isolation from some other source. Yeah. Is that kind of, is that Yeah. On the right track?

Julie: Exactly. You got it.

Bethany Joy Lenz: So.

So funny ever, uh, being asked some of these questions. ’cause I have days when I’m like, I have lots of opinions about things, but also I’m not, uh, I’m not a PhD. I’m not like a therapist. I’m not like, I’m not, I don’t know if I’m qualified, but I can tell you from my experience, um. The isolation is absolutely a key [00:37:00] role, a key, a key player in any kind of high demand environment.

Again, could be an abusive relationship. So you know, a romantic relationship that you are just wait, where is, I haven’t seen my friends in like six months. I’m all, my whole life is revolving around this person. And why do I kind of hate myself? Why do I feel like I’m always working toward a moving target?

And, uh, the only person that gives me encouragement is my. Partner and the only, but, but they’re also tearing me down all the time. And so the top notes of how those things play out are the same in a lot of different environments. Um, but the isolation is a key factor because that’s how they get you locked in.

Um, and they make you mistrust. Like they’ll start dropping little hints about why this person or that person is not trustworthy, not maybe not valuable for your life. Um. [00:38:00] There is a quote in CS Lewis’s the Great Divorce, and he talks about this woman who, there’s two characters talking and the one character says.

He’s explaining about this woman who, while she lived on earth, she had no children of her own, but every, but she was so loving and generous, and every boy that met her became her son. And every woman that met her became her daughter. And the other character goes, wasn’t that difficult for their parents, like the, the real, natural parents of these kids and people and the other, and the character responds.

Um. No, there are some people who steal other people’s children, but her love was a different kind. Her love was, oh God, I’m gonna butcher it. It’s, it’s something like, her love [00:39:00] was so, it was so encouraging that it, it. Made the, the people return to their natural families with more love for them and, and more of an overflow.

And that, I think is the difference. If someone in your life is suggesting that you cut someone out from a place of like you, you don’t need them in your life, you’re gonna be just fine. You know, the. Cut, cut it off. You don’t need to love them anymore. You don’t need to care anymore. That would be a red flag to me.

Whereas reaching out to somebody that maybe is not, uh, someone I wanna be in a day-to-day relationship with in my, maybe somebody in my family. Like where could I, where could I go to them from a place of care and love?[00:40:00]

Man, it, it, it, I’m sorry, I’m having such a difficult time No. Articulating this, but it’s like, there, there’s, it’s the lovingly detached, um, which is what they talk about Al-Anon too. Like, there’s, you, you can set boundaries. You can even not have a relationship with someone, but it’s the position of your heart, like, don’t cut off your own heart.

Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s where I think you get into danger. Like I always wanna maintain a sense of love and care and desire for, to see the best version of that person come to life. For sure. And I’m also may have to recognize that my being involved in their life may not bring that about.

Julie: Yeah.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh my God, that was like so long.

I’m sorry that No, you’re totally good. Any of that makes sense. It kind

Julie: of was like it does in my mind. Yeah. Well I just thought it was such [00:41:00] a beautiful story. You know, this entire book, at first I was like, dinner for vampires, and then you get to the end and you’re like, oh my God, she was the dinner for the vampires and like you, you.

Oh, you’re writing it just like hits your heart and where, you know, they’re saying these different things about boundaries and you’re like, right, I should set boundaries with my parents, and then that distance just grows and Oh, my heart just went out to you the entire time.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Thanks. Yeah, it’s, it’s so rough, you know, when you’re, when you’re young and you’re trying to do the right thing and trying to be a good person and.

It’s really tough. It’s really tough. Yeah. You know, there’s something about enabling that I think is interesting in the context of what the question you just asked, like[00:42:00]

this might sound counterintuitive, but if I approach a person that I’m in relationship with, who is toxic to me, who treats me badly. If I approach them from a selfless place, that would mean that I would say, Hey, you. It is not the best thing for you to be told in a manner of speaking that it’s okay to treat people badly.

My continuing to participate in this cycle and this relationship is bad for you. Hmm. I am not going to allow you to treat me badly because it’s bad for you.

Julie: Mm-hmm.

Bethany Joy Lenz: You can become a better person if I remove myself as the enabler, as an enabler in this scenario. I love you. I, I’m not gonna [00:43:00] let you keep treating me badly.

Julie: Come back to me when you’re healed and you wanna treat me better.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Yes. So that, that is a measure of boundary for myself, but ultimately I would be doing it for the other person. It’s, it’s to to be in a heart posture of being willing to sacrifice the relationship and being willing to sacrifice. Like, maybe this person never wants to talk to me again, but they’re never gonna get better if I just stay in this cycle with them.

Julie: Yeah, and I think it’s really, really important to talk about right now because there are so many people out there who still have really, really big profiles who are writing books and talking about this in a way where it’s just love and you just have to love and you just have to forgive. And what you just said was put in a better way than anybody has ever said on this show in over 625 episodes.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh my gosh. Wow.

Julie: Yeah.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Thank you. That’s amazing. Yeah. That’s, that’s, um, [00:44:00] that is a, an idea that I got from, uh, from Tim Keller on a, on a sermon about, hmm. Marriage. I’ll see if I can find it for you. I can’t claim that idea as my own, but it’s something that I just, I was like in the recesses of my brain. I was like, wait, there’s something here.

What? What is that? Why do I know that

Julie: I. I love it. Um, you know, you say at the end something very, very powerful, and again, it just really hit my heart where you go into this. I don’t know if you were, I think it was like a. Party. And you see somebody who maybe had been in the cult and brought you in right at the beginning and she’s with martini girl, girl holding, yeah, glasses.

And the girl with the martini glasses. And like you were in a cult. I would never be in a cult. And you start to ask her questions and you say, [00:45:00] would you call a woman who got, uh, married or. Would you call a woman who got married into an abusive relationship? Stupid. Um, and once a woman gets hit, is she stupid because she didn’t leave?

And you go, you’re smart. You know, why wouldn’t, why would somebody stay in an abusive relationship? And you said the only way that people change their opinion of abuse survivors is hearing from people who experienced it themselves?

Bethany Joy Lenz: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that’s true.

Julie: It is. Yeah, but I, I just so thank you for this book because my God, like you just brought everything to light in such a beautiful way, and it can’t be ee for you to share your story.

Bethany Joy Lenz: You’re so kind. Thank you. I, uh, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s not, it, it’s not difficult at this point because, you know, it was 15, almost 15 years ago that I left, so well [00:46:00] almost. Yeah. Uh, 12 years ago, I, I left so, and then it was 10 years of the experience before that. I mean, I was 21 when I really got involved. So objectively, I have so much personal mileage, so much time away from that.

So much time and therapist’s office and friendships, healing, all that, family time, all that stuff that. It’s funny to be writing. If I didn’t have all my journals from that time, I don’t think I would’ve been able to write this book ’cause I just wouldn’t have remembered all those things. Um, so it doesn’t feel hard in terms of like, painful to share the story?

It’s definitely, um,

I guess it’s, it’s definitely a little nerve wracking just because, uh. You never know how something’s gonna be received. And it was always [00:47:00] hard to be like, yeah, yeah, I was in a cult. I mean, I would joke about it to sort of keep the mood light, but that, that was the big thing. Like that’s the big S in shame for somebody who was in a cult is to like, you’re like, I’m a smart person.

Does this mean I’m. Stupid. Does this mean I’m, I’m not trustworthy. I can’t trust myself. I can’t trust my gut. I’m never gonna be able to have good relationships ’cause I won’t know how to trust the right people. And it’s embarrassing because of the cultural. Assumptions around this word cult. So I’m hopefully able to start demystifying some of that and putting it into much more of a clinical understanding, which is, it’s just narcissistic abuse and everyone is susceptible to it, and everybody runs into it in different ways in their life, depending on what your Achilles heel is.

Mine was family. Somebody else’s might be a [00:48:00] certain type of personality and a partner. Um, somebody else’s might be, you know, their parents never gave them accolades and so they’re in a work environment where the boss is horrible. But man, that person is so, uh, esteemed that when they do say you did a great job and they let everybody know in the company that you did a great job, you could live off of that for a year.

Julie: Hmm.

Bethany Joy Lenz: That there are just so many blind spots that we all have, so I’m hopefully able to just start demystifying that and, and release helping people release their shame around it.

Julie: You know, we say all these phrases all the time, like, take your power back, and what does that actually mean? Yeah. I hope that anybody who is curious, you know, or wants to take their power back in their own way, dinner for vampires is a great place to start, um, because you do in this.

Book, you take your power back and you show how you did that. Um, so thank you for your work. And I also have to [00:49:00] say too, I nev I, we haven’t had cable since, uh, like. 20 0 9, 20 10 ish. Um, I’ve always wanted to watch Hallmark movies, but they’re never on like Netflix. Yeah. Well they put ’em on Netflix now, and I just watched the other day, um, Christmas in the Biltmore Hotel.

Oh yeah, the Biltmore Christmas. Yes, the Biltmore. Oh my gosh. Like if you like movies and like the olden day, you know, just like the. What was that one movie with, uh, when an angel, when a bell

Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, oh, it’s a wonderful

Julie: Life. Yes. It had such a, it’s a wonderful life vibe to it. Yes, it’s a

Bethany Joy Lenz: time travel. Uh, you know, I go back in time to the 1940s on a film, film production that’s happening during Christmas time at the Biltmore Hotel.

And so we, it’s back and forth between modern day and the past. And of course, I fall in love with the leading man and, you know, it’s. It’s all very fun.

Julie: Oh, and I was crushed at the end, but [00:50:00] you just have to watch it. You have to watch to the very, very end. It’s so, so good. Thank you. Um, yes. Thank you for all the love that you put onto the world.

Joy. You’re amazing.

Bethany Joy Lenz: You’re beautiful. You too. Thank you Julia. Really thank you for opening up a conversation that, um, I don’t get to have very often. So it’s really, it was really lovely and I hope I made some sense. Absolutely. Thanks. Letting in my A DHD brain where. Bounce back and forth, and hopefully your listeners followed me along

Julie: for sure.

No, I think that’s amazing. Yes. Oh, thank you. We all need a little time to process.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Yes. Well, you are an angel and you were lovely to talk to, and I’m just so grateful that we, that we, uh, had some time and thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.

Julie: Of course, of course. Um, perfect. That’s a wrap. Okay. I’ll see you soon.

Have a great rest of your,

Bethany Joy Lenz: uh, afternoon. What day is It’s Thursday. Yeah. So yeah, you too.

Julie: And happy holidays.

Bethany Joy Lenz: Oh, yes, same, same. Back at you. Bye.

Julie: Thank you. Bye. [00:51:00] Thank you for joining me today. I hope you’re feeling a renewed sense of clarity and a deep connection to the angelic guidance that surrounds you right here, right now.

If you need help hearing and working with your angels, join me in the membership for an experience unlike any other. If you’re seeking personal insights, book a reading with me. Each reading brings you the loving, positive messages, your angels and loved ones in heaven. Need you to hear right now, and if you’re ready to unleash your hidden gifts and transform your path into one of soulful abundance, develop all your spiritual gifts to the max and my Angel Reiki school in person in Oakbrook, Illinois.

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For more details, please visit the angel medium.com and go to the Angel Reiki school tab. I’m Julie and I can’t wait to guide you on this remarkable journey. Until next time, keep radiating your unique, beautiful energy into this world. And listening to your angels. I love you friends.