Hello beautiful souls! In a large majority of my sessions, I feel a depletion of energy within people that isn’t the same as depression, and it can’t be treated with a week of rest. It’s a depletion of your spirit; the part of you that’s responsible for your zest and vitality of life. I wanted to have Corey Keyes, author and researcher, on the podcast today because his scientific findings match what I am seeing almost daily in my sessions. What Corey finds is that most of our society is languishing, whereas there are simple tools that we can use to turn the tide and flourish. I loved the end of our conversation where we talked about changing the vocabulary. I hope by the end of this episode, instead of asking people, “How are you doing today?” you’ll be asking them, “What’s causing you to flourish today?” There is no doubt in my mind that Corey is creating one of the most seismic shifts in our world from everyone I’ve met to date. To me, he’s the definition of an earth angel.

Corey Keyes’ book ‘Languishing’ is available at all major book retailers

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TRANSCRIPT

Julie Jancius: Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to the Angels and Awakening podcast. I’m your host and author, Julie Jancius. And friends, today we have on a guest. And once you get into the middle of this episode, by the end of this episode, you’re going to be like, Julie, I know exactly why you had Corey on the show today. Friends, so much of what I’ve been seeing, feeling in my sessions with folks over the last five years is all within Corey Keyes’ study. You know, the scientific research that he’s done and the book that he’s written called Languishing. And I really hope that what you take away from this interview today is that there is a rut that a lot of us have fallen into, and we can very easily fall into it again within life. But there is another way to live, and this is all just, like, amazing. I wish every healer, life coach, therapist had this book on their bookshelves, because, my God, you’re doing amazing work in the world, Corey.

Corey Keyes: Thank you, Julie. I appreciate it. And thank you for having me on.

Julie Jancius (03:20): Yeah, of course. So let’s start here. I, think I first read your New York Times article that came out, about Languishing. This was years ago. I think in the middle of COVID But languishing isn’t a Covid related thing. Can you tell everybody what languishing is? And for those who might have seen that New York Times article too, it’s around and it’s here to stay. Languishing.

Corey Keyes: yes. No, it was not a Covid thing. And I think we can come back to it. Why? It was, so well received, especially during that period. But to really do it justice, I think we have to go beyond the word meh or blah. And I think that I want to really prevent the world from thinking just in those two words. Because it doesn’t do it justice. It’s not like you’ve been around three rainy days and you’re just feeling blah. It’s not like you’re bored. And it’s not like, well, disinterested might be.

Julie Jancius: You’re not depressed, though. It’s not depression.

Corey Keyes (04:32): No. In fact, if you were to look early on in my book, there’s the 14 questions that I developed to measure, but especially to diagnose the presence of good mental health, which I call flourishing. And languishing is the absence of at least seven out of the 14 signs of flourishing. So to be languishing is to rarely feel, for instance, that your life has purpose or meaning. On top of that, you may feel like you don’t belong and have a community where you have a sense of belonging. And on top of those two things, you might be feeling that you don’t contribute anything of worth and value. And then there’s a couple more. You might be not like most parts of who you are, your personality, you might not be accepting. You may have very low autonomy, which is you lack confidence to think and express your own ideas and opinions. And you might lack warm and trusting relationships. And on top of that, and you might not be feeling emotional well being. And I measure that by, did you feel happy, satisfied or interested in life? So languishing is a constellation of a combination of things. It’s not just feeling the absence of happiness or satisfaction. It’s those things that go into life that make it meaningful or worthwhile. Purpose, belonging, contribution, acceptance and growth and confidence and things like that. So the languish is to have a real serious deficit of what makes life good.

Julie Jancius (06:16): So just to put this into perspective for people, I’ve been feeling this within my sessions, where some people just have this energetic– everybody’s got this life force energy. And you can feel that within them. And some people feel very vibrant and full. And some people feel just depleted and it’s not a depletion in a way where you could just go do some self care, take a bath, have a weekend to yourself and come back. I think some people describe it as a rut or a funk or I’m just kind of in this cloud for a longer period of time. But in your book you said a couple of times, it’s not depression. And I think that this is the curiosity that your book covers that I’ve never seen before, which is, okay, there’s things out there that we’re experiencing, waves of energy, but we don’t have words for them yet. And so I love that languishing gives us some vernacular vocabulary to be able to say, this is where I’m at. Because if you can’t see where you’re at on the map, how do you get out of it? How do you get to the point at which you want to be?

Corey Keyes (07:40): Yeah, languishing. I chose that word because I think of human beings much as I think of anything that was put on this planet. We were planted, and everything planted here should grow and be generative and give. And there’s something that happens when you stop feeling alive. And people talk about this, they start to feel like they’re dying inside.

Corey Keyes (08:13): Or they’re disappearing. It’s as if you’re sort of walking dead. This emptiness is a very haunting place because I’ve been there many times. I experienced it in my teen years. It’s a very interesting place because, you know, something isn’t right with you. And the way you’re living here, you’re not alive, you’re not growing where you’re planted. And I also have heard people talk about this in very religious terms, talking about their soul like it’s been wounded or, like their soul has been carved out and it’s empty. I didn’t talk too much about that in the book because– there’s a quote from a woman who was interviewed in an Oprah episode and used that language. And I thought that was intriguing because I know what that feels like. Something in the soul is where meaning and mattering and all those things that go into flourishing, that’s where it resides, because that’s our spirit. And when we have flourishing, I agree with you, it exudes, it gives, it’s generative 100%.

Julie Jancius (09:30): Now, this is something that just stunned and fascinated me when I read your book. And I think that this is just going to knock people off in their chairs. You are the first person to study mental health and everybody else is sitting there studying mental illness, and what you say is what you put your attention on grows. And so here we are as a society, putting 99.99% of our attention onto mental illness, and we have seen that. I mean, I was a baby of the. Just watched as the mental illness has just not gotten us to a place of peace, of feeling fulfilled, of feeling alive and that vibrancy. So you come into this field, and I need to hear this backstory, and you start to study mental health, and this is shifting everything. How did you make that determination and go in that direction?

Corey Keyes (10:47): I have always been attracted to things that much of the world takes for granted or considers unimportant, and therefore remains invisible. And I know that invisibility myself, personally. So, I was really shocked when I was a graduate student, and I wanted to study the presence and absence of good health, and nobody had studied it. There wasn’t even a measure like it for mental health. Mental health was an empty category. It was the absence of mental illness. And I thought to myself, that cannot be enough.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Corey Keyes (11:32): And I know personally, being free of problems does not mean you’re suddenly full with joy and goodness and functioning well in life.

Corey Keyes (12:40): And so, no, it’s not hyperbole to say that nobody before me studied mental health. And I was told, serious scholars, Corey, study serious things. Mental illness is serious. And I thought to myself, well, I agree, I agree. Don’t get me wrong, listeners. I know mental illness personally. I write about it as part of my journey in the book with depression and PTSD, but it’s simply not the place. Being free of problems is simply I never thought was enough.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Corey Keyes (13:20): And so that started this journey. Well, if you were going to take that on and make it visible, what would you ask people? And that’s where a scientist starts to try to discover something that’s been invisible for us social and psychological scientists we have to find the right questions. Like an astronomer needs a– Every astronomer needs a m powerful telescope to go out there and discover the universe. We make discoveries, too, just like astronomers. Except our telescope is the right questions. And those 14 questions were part of– I didn’t create all of those questions, but I pulled together a variety of literatures and theories and views of health and then tested whether it worked. And so I was surprised. It was not an easy place to be. The world– I want to say this to people because I realized early in my career that we’re born into a world where people who have come before us have defined what’s important and gets the world’s attention.

Corey Keyes (14:35): By the same token. They also have defined for us what’s unimportant and what remains invisible. As soon as I started trying to move in the direction of mental health as something positive, there were scholars who took it upon themselves to try to destroy the very thing we were doing. Because it was like, if you put attention over here, you’re taking attention from what I consider important. I don’t see the world that way. It’s not a zero sum game, but we scholars can be really competitive. And I was shocked sometimes the things that people said to say that this was unimportant. You’re wasting your time. And yet, there’s a part of me that my past created a fierce determination to prove the world wrong.

Julie Jancius: Yeah, they were wrong.

Corey Keyes (15:35): Yes. Well, they were wrong about me. I’m not something you can throw out and you can beat up and just say you’re worthless. I fought that all my life, my past. And by the same token, I was not going to be told what to study.

Julie Jancius (15:51): Yeah. So I have to read this part because it just sums it all up for me. If we could cure all mental illness tomorrow, it would not put us where we need to be. There is no there. The absence of mental illness does not mean the presence of good mental health. Good mental health is not a null category. It is filled with the ingredients of flourishing. Purpose in life. Belonging, contribution to society, acceptance of oneself, acceptance of others, warm and trusting relationships, autonomy, personal growth, and more. Flourishing is filled with the things that make life worth living, that bring quality to whatever quantity of life we are granted. Wow.

Corey Keyes (16:47): I just love hearing the words. There’s something about I will never grow tired of hearing and thinking about the questions that go into flourishing.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Corey Keyes (17:02): And, if anything comes from my book, people will start to think about those things you just read. The purpose, the belonging, the contribution the autonomy, the mastery, the growth. And to be mentally healthy is to have a sufficient quantity of those things. Right? So, yes, people can be free of mental illness in a typical year, Julie, in most countries, no more, and this is really rounding up, no more than 20% of a population will have a mental disorder. And you would think, by definition, that means 80% are mentally healthy. And no, there’s not that much flourishing in almost any country in the world or any population.

Julie Jancius: What would you say the percentage is on Americans who are languishing? Because if I put a percentage on it, with the number of the sessions that I work with right now, I’d say it’s at least between 33% to 44%. It’s a high number.

Corey Keyes: Yeah. Well, I can tell you just in teenagers. we found that by middle school, 40% to 50% are languishing, and then it goes up another 10% among our high schoolers.

Julie Jancius: Wow.

Corey Keyes (18:22): It should be shocking to the world, and these data are not new, but it should be shocking that being an adolescent, at least in our country, but it’s probably true in many others, is the period where there is the highest level of languishing. And that’s not good. It’s not a good place to be, because even in middle school, ages 12 to 14, if you’re languishing, you’re already engaging all kinds of forms of delinquency. You’re already choosing a path that is not the path most teachers or parents would want for you.

Julie Jancius: Right?

Corey Keyes (19:01): And other things go wrong as well. And then at the end of life, Julie, it goes up dramatically. If you live long enough, and we are living long enough, past ages of roughly 70 to 75, languishing skyrockets again. It’s really high at the beginning and the end of life, throughout adulthood, it declines, and then it goes back up at the end of life.

Julie Jancius (19:25): So many places I want to go here. One of the things that’s just popping into my head to say is I read a lot, but I could never imagine just reading one book. And it still is just mind blowing what you said earlier, that so many people felt competitive with this subject, because you need to understand both. It’s just so clear from the outside looking in. One of the things that you write here is fight for your flourishing. So when you speak the word flourishing, flourishing is the exact opposite of languishing. How do we begin to fight for our own flourishing?

Corey Keyes (20:05): Well, we could talk about some of those five vitamins as one way, but what I was referring to there, is the fact that, many of us have some painful experiences, very painful experiences that have formed us and that we carry with us throughout our lives. I talk about my own, and the fact of the matter is, I thought I could outsmart and out distance myself, right out success myself from my trauma and my start in life. But every time I looked in the rear view mirror, it was there, and I would get triggered and derailed from flourishing. So it’s one thing to start focusing on flourishing, and we’ll talk about the five vitamins, but for many of us, and it happened to me. I had a really momentous moment where I almost decided that I no longer belonged here and I was going to end my life. And that was when I realized I have to deal with the darkness and the pain and the suffering that I’m carrying with me. Otherwise, I will not ever taste flourishing very much. And that’s my recommendation. Part of the fight is the face I had to face and work through the things that my trauma left inside of me, the sense that I didn’t belong, that I was worthless. I shouldn’t be kind to myself. Nobody loves me, really. And you can’t ever achieve enough. They will never be satisfied. Your whole worth is in what you produce.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Corey Keyes (22:02): And no, I had to face that. And that was a hard. And I fought, and it fought and pushed back, and I fought, and it pushed back, and I’m still working on it, listeners. I’m still, Every week now, I’m down to once a week I go to trauma therapy.

Julie Jancius (22:21): Wow. Well, and I think we have to give people, if it’s okay, some parts of your backstory, because you have survived so much throughout your life. And not that it’s a comparison in any way, shape, or form, but I read your story, and I didn’t go through anything nearly as hard, but I know my own pain and how much it’s just encompassed so much of my life. But you had it where your mom left and your dad was raising you. You had a stepmom that came in, they had a move, and she was really the full time caregiver. Your dad was gone, abusing alcohol, and, it was your step uncle who realized that something was really going wrong in your household, and your stepmom was hurting you and your sister. And so, God bless that earth angel of a step uncle. He went and he found your biological grandparents and said, somebody’s got to get these kids out of this house.

Corey Keyes: Exactly.

Julie Jancius: Wow.

Corey Keyes (23:30): Yes. and I must say that finally meeting my biological mother was that left a deep scar as well because I wasn’t prepared for her to show up with an intact family, three children and a husband. Because to tell your listeners, I was a newborn. Shortly after being brought home, my mother decided she just left. And my sister was two years older than I. Two of us just must have sat there for days. And finally– and my grandmother was calling thinking, well, she’s not getting an answer because, well, my mother must be busy with us and doing other things. So after about the third or fourth day of calling, she thought something’s not right. So she comes over and realizes we had been left for days. Wow.

Julie Jancius: Ah.

Corey Keyes (24:30): Then my grandmother tells me the story. Well, you had pneumonia as an infant, barely two weeks old. And you made it, Corey. You made it. And I must say, I wish my grandmother and I were so close. She told me that story because I was really having a difficult time. I’d been adopted at age twelve. Around 14, my grandfather died. He had emphysema, and an enlarged heart. And I was devastated. I didn’t have enough time with them. I wanted them, they were so good to us.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Corey Keyes: And she told me that story because she wanted me to know. Corey, you are so much stronger than you realize. But that was a painful memory as well.

Corey Keyes (25:20): So we each have our stories now. I’m not trying to get into a suffering olympics, here. Your pain, dear listener, your pain is yours. And real and languishing itself is a painful experience. And it’s trying to tell you something has to change in your life, listen to it, but to work through it because you cannot, at least I learned you cannot get to the other side by going around whatever got you no detours here. And I tried them. Trust me, I tried them. No detours. Yeah, you have to look it down and say, you don’t own me anymore. You’re not going to define me anymore. And that takes time, those painful things.

Julie Jancius (26:15): So we all have these pain points. And all of the pain points that you just talked about were moments that you referred to in the book that led you to a point of languishing within your life. And then you get to this point where you think to yourself, okay, well, you’ve done all of the work on it, but all of the rest of us, we want to take those steps to mental health. And you talk about so many different pathways to this. So I want to talk about a couple of them, but one of them is purpose. And one of the things that I have just come to believe from all of my work is that purpose is something that is kind of co created between us and the other side. I don’t believe that God universe source comes through, parts the clouds in the skies, and says, corey, this is your purpose. Go out and do great work at it. I believe that a lot of people, though, are waiting for that moment in order to begin really living their lives. However, we choose our purpose just as much as our purpose chooses us. 

(27:30) I heard Jay Shetty the other day say something that just so resonated. He said the best advice that he had heard in his life was that he should walk through any open doors that are right in front of him. And I thought, my God, that is the way to your purpose. Because God opens up these doors, and when we say yes to them, we walk through them, and then the next door opens up and the next door after that, and the next door after that. But so many people are waiting to– and I think for some reason, society portrays it this way. Our purpose is supposed to come to us. We see that in books and movies and entertainment. Do you believe that we choose it?

Corey Keyes (28:22): I do. In the sense, well, yes, in part, because I invite the reader early on in that chapter to answer two very simple questions. And if you can’t say yes to at least the first one, then just admit that– Don’t think about purpose right now. For some reason, it’s not your place right now. And don’t even bother, because the point here is purpose comes down to choosing to help someone, something in this world, and help them and focus on their well being or its well being. So it doesn’t have to be people. It could be the environment. It could be right, animals. Yes. But that chapter has a lot to do with, before I even talk about purpose, all you have to do is if you want to walk on this path out of languishing and practice one of the vitamins, choose once a week at least, to devote a part of your day to helping someone or something. If you want to, up the ante, take on a volunteer role where there’s commitments and do more of that. And perhaps you’ve been toying with the idea of saying, I want to dedicate a part of my life to something that you see as your cause and take that on. Then you’re starting to think, in my way of thinking of purpose, you’re starting to think about living your purpose. Because to me, we all can take on a cause. We all can help somebody. We could all volunteer. You choose whatever you want to do. But you don’t have to get stuck on purpose, because I think we think too big.

Julie Jancius: Yeah.

Corey Keyes (30:14): To me, I’ve learned that. Keep it small, keep it local. You’re not going to solve problems halfway, around this world, even though your heart goes out. Right, and my heart goes out. I’d love to solve some of the problems that are going on in this country, that country. And I feel for people, but I have to work where I can make a difference, and that’s right here, right now. Wherever. In my community, my neighborhood, wherever. So, to me, if you can’t say yes, do I want to help something or someone? And then, second, do I have what it takes? Call it skill, talent, whatever. And here’s the thing, Julie. I don’t think a lot of people believe they have anything of worth that would be useful to the world or help others.

Julie Jancius: I don’t get that.

Corey Keyes (31:07): But that’s where we have to meet them. I know that feeling. I was created by experience before I was adopted, to feel I was worthless, useless, a piece of trash. And, yeah, that’s the world telling you a story that isn’t yours. That wasn’t my story, but that’s the one I lived for a long time, and suddenly I was blessed. You may not have, but I was transplanted into a home that was just the opposite. And suddenly I blossomed. I went from detention and delinquency to honor roll, student quarterback choir because I was transplanted in a home with love and safety and all the good things that we all need. I know what that feels like to get the wrong message, that is where you have to fight for flourishing. You have to understand that that’s the world telling you a story that isn’t yours. Yours is to be made. And I had to live that and work through the pain because I wanted to tell my story and live my life, not what the past had done to me. That’s why I talked. That’s what guided me through this whole journey to be the creator. And yes, there’s something spiritual and godlike in the world to co create the life I was put here to live.

Julie Jancius (32:42): So speak to those people that are out there who don’t feel that value and that worth and maybe haven’t found that loving, adoptive, heartfelt center yet.

Corey Keyes (32:56): I didn’t write about this directly in a book, but to me, spiritual and religious communities are places where that can, when it’s done well, happen and should happen. That’s the story. That’s the story of Jesus, as I understand it. unconditional love and acceptance. And when we are practicing the real faith, we welcome everyone. So that may not be formal religion for you. And I would recommend, if you want to try that, find the place where you see the most love practiced and go there. Don’t wait for it to come to you. I always had to go out in the world and find what I needed after my grandparents taught me, this is the stuff you need to live. You got to find it. Or there’s spiritual communities.

Julie Jancius: We have one. We have a membership that meets.

Corey Keyes: I must say I struggle, Julie, to think what other places might practice that. maybe some volunteer communities, right? But when we throw out spirituality and religion, we throw out a lot of places where love and acceptance can be and should be, I should say, practiced.

Julie Jancius (34:35): So this brings me to the perfect point. I want to read another passage of yours because I thought that this is just so touching. When belief wanes. When I stopped relying on my once deep spiritual approach to life about eight years ago, anger, resentment, and hunger for apologies, once again took over my life. My wife and I moved into a smaller, one story home to age and place. I left behind my beloved yoga studio, where I’d been practicing yoga for 20 years. And suddenly, I lost my spiritual community. Instead of trying to find a replacement for that loss, I stopped doing yoga. Soon enough, I felt increasingly unappreciated at work. I traveled the world giving invited talks and had thousands of citations, the currency of intellectuals. Yet my university gave me only a temporary three year endowed professorship. I felt damned by faint praise. I became self centered. As my ego expanded, my spiritual life shrank. That change happened gradually. I think that’s interesting. You don’t realize you’re falling down on the dimension of divinity until it’s almost too late. Wow.

Corey Keyes (36:02): Just hearing you talk about. I can remember that realization as if it was yesterday. And, wow, it brought tears to my eyes, because to me, there are so many other benefits to spirituality and religion, but the one that I talk about a good deal in that chapter is it’s shrinking the ego, the self centeredness, and encouraging us to be the better kind of person we’re all possible of becoming that I always found so attractive about religion. I almost became a priest after my freshman year, where I talk about in the book. I almost flunked out my first year because my grade point was 2.1. If I’d fallen below 2.0, I would have been on probation. And I spent the summer in reflection. and I was either going down to seminary in Chicago, or I was going back to university with a different approach. And I remembered a class I had taken, on psychology, and it stirred up something really good. And I thought I could do both of those things. I could have sort of my mission, my pulpit, the things I want to profess to the world and tend to people through my research. And that’s actually what I see as flourishing, and languishing is all about. It is, to me, a very spirit filled project that’s scientifically based. And to me, it melded the best of both worlds. But I never left behind that hunger, that hunger to walk, on ground that’s sacred and create places and things that are sacred and special, where we acknowledge the fact that this is where goodness resides.

Julie Jancius (38:20): Yeah. There’s only so many ways in which you can help. Right. And I’m not trying to push this or promote it. It’s just, like, from the center of my heart, the reason that we created this membership was for people to be able to connect and have that community and have that daily spiritual practice and have access to just everything that they needed. And I got to tell you, we had about 15 people this year write in and say, Julie, I was in for the first couple of years of the membership, and then I stopped last year, and I’m coming back because I noticed a huge shift in my life when I just have this accountability and this community and this support. And I think that that’s touched my life and made me more proud than anything else that I’ve done, because that’s what I need myself. And I’ve always just created things that I’ve needed in the world that were just lacking and not there. 

But, I started this conversation with you today, saying, are you having a flourishing day or a languishing day? And you’re like, well, there’s a bit of both in every day. but I think that we have to change the language. And you’re helping the various spiritual communities and mental health communities come together in a way that speaks new languages. And I hope that we’re saying to one another more so not how are you doing? But when we see each other every day, where are you languishing today? Where are you flourishing today?

Corey Keyes (40:04): Yeah. What a wonderful question. Because, that question then encourages people to see where and what they’re doing that may not be feeding their spirit. They’re flourishing because it reminds me of when I had to take a step back and go into treatment. I underwent cognitive behavioral therapy, and it’s a very detailed approach. Every time you have an experience that provoked an emotion, you write about it and you point it out and what was going on and what you thought. And it helps you see patterns where things trigger really negative, distorted thoughts. By the same token, we could be doing just the opposite of, oh wait, what were you doing when you were flourishing today? What was going on? And what were you doing when you were languishing today?

Julie Jancius: Oh, I love that.

Corey Keyes (40:58): And it begins to create the same kind of journal that I had to do for months that helped me create a user manual for me and what I needed to do more of and also what I needed to protect myself from.

Corey Keyes: What a wonderful way to ask people and leave it at that. And just to say, yeah.

Julie Jancius: What’s making you flourish today? Yeah, I love that. Wow, what a different world this would be. I wrote down here a couple of times as I was reading through your book. This man is changing the world. This man is changing the world. I don’t even think he knows how much he’s changing the world. And I’m just so appreciative of your work and the human being that you are and that you stuck with us and life and what you’re creating. You’re an earth angel, Corey.

Corey Keyes (41:55): Thank you. I write about my angels in my book and especially my acknowledgment. They’re what Joseph Campbell called the magic helpers. We have them here, too. Everyone needs those earth angels and those magic helpers. I needed them and I talk about them in my book and I acknowledge them in my acknowledgment.

Julie Jancius: Yeah, tell everybody what you believe about those magic helpers.

Corey Keyes (42:18): Well, that they help you continue the journey through a lot of dark, hard, painful experiences, because that journey is part of what– he called it, the hero. Right. The hero’s journey. Right. That we’re all heroes in the end. We’re all the architects of our own story and we have to stop living the stories that were implanted into us by a world that didn’t really know us. And we will need angels and magic helpers along the way. Boy, I did.

Julie Jancius (42:58): I love that. I love that. I love that. Corey, you have to tell everybody where to find your book. And I’m just going to say this. If you are a life coach, a healer, helping, serving people in any way, shape or form, in the wellness community, this is a must read book so that you can help people as much as you can and serve as much as you can. and it’s a great book for anybody out there who feels like they’re languishing, their kids are languishing, their husband, their partner is languishing. I mean, this is really going to turn the tide, and create a huge, energetic shift. Where can people find you and where can they find the book? And we’ll put all that in the show notes.

Corey Keyes (43:41): There’s, of course, the book can be found at a variety of outlets, and all of which, you know, the Barnes & Noble, Amazon, you name it. And of course, it’s published by Crown, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House, a wonderful publisher. And they have a website for me as well, languishingbook.com, where you can find out a little bit more about the book or order it. It will come out, February 20. And, you can always find me online, of course.

Julie Jancius: Perfect. Is that coreykeyes.com?

Corey Keyes: No, I don’t have, I’m such a little Ludite. I should probably have a website by now, but I don’t. No worries.

Julie Jancius: That’s refreshing. I’ve never had a guest, not have a website to share. That’s beautiful.

Corey Keyes: Yes. we’ll see how that goes. I may not.

Julie Jancius: No worries. That’s perfect. Thank you, Corey, so much for your time and for being here.

Corey Keyes: Well, you’re more than welcome. And thank you for having me, Julie.